#245 Jacquelyn LaMar Berney - You Don’t Need To Chase Likes To Build Trust

In this episode of The Scott Townsend Show, I reconnect with longtime friend and marketing leader Jacquelyn LaMar Berney, President of VI Marketing and Branding in Oklahoma City. Jacquelyn—an accomplished marketer, community leader, and trustee for the Oklahoma City Museum of Art—joins me for a thoughtful and energizing conversation about authenticity, personal branding, and the strange new world of LinkedIn advice.

Jacquelyn and I unpack a recent post she wrote that began with the bold opener: “LinkedIn advice is worthless.” That hook sparked a deep dive into why people chase engagement, how AI-generated posts are changing the platform, and why contradictory “thought leadership” leaves people confused rather than helped.

We talk about the “Harvard Trust Triangle,” what it means to have a “wobble” in how others perceive your empathy, logic, or authenticity, and how to show up as your real self without oversharing. Jacquelyn also reflects on the evolution of LinkedIn—from résumé site, to networking hub, to something that sometimes feels like Tinder-for-business.

Together, we explore:

• Whether authenticity is still possible in an algorithm-driven world
• How personal brands are built (whether you mean to build one or not)
• Why trend-chasing feels hollow
• How to genuinely help people without turning into an “influencer”

It’s a smart, funny, and honest conversation about the tension between being yourself and performing yourself online—and why showing up with integrity still matters.

Chapters

• 2:59 Guest Intro And Background
• 5:19 The LinkedIn Post That Sparked Debate
• 8:19 Authenticity Versus Contrarian Clickbait
• 11:19 The Trust Triangle Explained
• 16:12 Authenticity, Transparency, And Social Norms
• 20:02 How LinkedIn Changed And Why It’s Messy
• 25:42 Can You Build A Real Personal Brand
• 31:22 What A Brand Really Promises
• 36:02 AI, Plagiarism, And Credibility Online
• 41:52 Discernment, Time, And Earning Trust

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 2:02

Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show, brought to you by Dizo Man Productions.

SPEAKER_00: 2:08

Hey, this is Scott Townsend. Welcome back to the Scott Townsend Show. And today I'm with Jacqueline Lamar Burney, uh president of uh how do you say that?

SPEAKER_03: 2:18

The VI Marketing and Branding.

SPEAKER_00: 2:20

VI Marketing and Branding in Oklahoma City. Welcome to the show, Jacqueline.

SPEAKER_03: 2:26

Thanks so much, Scott. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_00: 2:28

Good to see you too. It's been a long time.

SPEAKER_03: 2:30

It sure has.

SPEAKER_00: 2:32

It was uh, I think I I came down to Oklahoma City to do a talk on uh QR codes in the Will Rogers Theater, and golly, that was 15 maybe 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_03: 2:47

It was a while ago.

SPEAKER_00: 2:49

Yeah, but that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed that. And the Oklahoma City Jacqueline is a member or past president of the American Marketing Association's Oklahoma City chapter. She belongs to, she's a member of the Rotary Club. And what else? I mean, you're you're a very busy person. The uh museum there in Oklahoma City trustee.

SPEAKER_03: 3:10

Yep. I'm a uh trustee member at the Oklahoma City Um Museum of Art. And I also sit on the foundation board for the Variety Care Foundation, um, which provides health care all over the state of Oklahoma. That's cool to those who are underserved.

SPEAKER_00: 3:27

Right. So, first question, like I always ask everybody, is what'd you have for breakfast?

SPEAKER_03: 3:34

I didn't need breakfast. Oh, yeah. I had a coffee. I actually um went, I had my assistant go to Starbucks to get one of the little bear. There's like little bear coffees today.

SPEAKER_04: 3:46

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 3:47

And unfortunately, my Starbucks didn't have that. So it was just a regular latte kind of morning.

SPEAKER_00: 3:54

No bear.

SPEAKER_03: 3:55

No, I really was excited about it too. I was gonna post it and talk about you know how special it is when you give uh a woman uh a bear, no matter what age we are. Didn't get one.

SPEAKER_00: 4:06

Didn't get one, dang it.

SPEAKER_03: 4:08

No, I know. Better luck next time, I hope.

SPEAKER_00: 4:11

So uh you've been in the marketing advertising world for a long time now. You went to Oklahoma, uh uh University of Central Oklahoma, I guess it was, for marketing advertising.

SPEAKER_04: 4:21

I did.

SPEAKER_00: 4:23

And uh I I noticed the the whole reason why we're here is uh I noticed a post that you posted on LinkedIn, um, and I read it and the first sentence really grabbed me. And uh I thought, wow, that's I wonder what she I wonder what she really means by that, or yeah, I'd like to ask her some questions. And so you were kind enough to say yes, I'll be on the show and let's talk about it. So the post, do you do you have the post in front of you?

SPEAKER_03: 4:58

I don't, but um, I can pull it up. Let's pull it up.

SPEAKER_00: 5:01

Yeah, let's pull it up.

SPEAKER_03: 5:02

I'm pretty good at uh multitasking, so let's get the the LinkedIn up.

SPEAKER_00: 5:09

I've been kind of disappointed in LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03: 5:12

I think we all are. I think that's part of the issue, if I'm being honest. Okay, when did I post that? That was a few weeks ago.

SPEAKER_00: 5:20

Found it. Okay. So you uh for those of you listening out there, why don't you uh kind of give us the can you read that post to us and let kind of let people know what we're talking about here?

SPEAKER_03: 5:32

I sure can. So it says LinkedIn advice is worthless. Nobody believes what they're saying, they're just chasing likes. We call that the hook, Scott. That's why the first line got you. Uh two posts blew up on my feed this week. One, um, in quotes, authenticity is everything. The other, in quotes, don't bring your authentic self to work. Neither person is trying to help you. They're just trying to build their brands. One knows that authenticity is trending, so they lean into it. The other knows contrarian takes get attention, so they push back against it. And you get stuck trying to figure out which one applies to your life, your boss, your job. The people creating the content don't know any of that, but they tell you how to act anyway. I have no idea if you should be authentic or not, but I know these people don't either.

SPEAKER_00: 6:18

So yeah, I that first sentence uh really grabbed me. It was the hook.

SPEAKER_03: 6:23

It was the hook.

SPEAKER_00: 6:24

What was the spark behind all that? Why why did you even write that?

SPEAKER_03: 6:27

What well, I mean, honestly, for several months now, I have been a little annoyed by LinkedIn. And this really happened, but I mean, there's contrarian points of view all day, every day. And people, you know, I in high school was a Lincoln Douglas debater, you know. So I know that you have the af and you have the neg. And I think that people are choosing one side or the other, whether they believe it or not, mostly because having a point of view will have somebody jump on your side or engage with you just to argue the opposite. And this one specifically caught my attention, or the two points of view caught my attention because authenticity is something that I think is important. It's part of the trust triangle, um, something that people have always told me I'm very good at. And what's the trust triangle? The trust triangle is essentially um, it's actually uh a hard, it's called like the Harvard Trust Triangle. And I should know Edmondson, or not Edmondson, I'll tell you later. I should know um who, two very, very, very um intelligent women who have been studying trust for a long time. They um found or have developed this trust triangle that says that empathy, authenticity, and logic are the key components to um trust. And most people, not enough all, have a wobble. And my wobble, um, I see it as two points of like two ways. One, you have a wobble in how you perceive people's um or how you trust people, and another in the way that people trust you.

SPEAKER_00: 8:07

And um is a wobble good or bad?

SPEAKER_03: 8:09

It's bad.

SPEAKER_00: 8:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 8:11

So, so like you may not trust me because you think that um, and this is actually the truth. Most people think that I'm not empathetic. Um, I am empathetic. However, I have learned to sort of like quarantine off my empathy just so I can stick to being logical. Um, but that's why authenticity has been so important to me. I would say in the last four or five years since I learned about this. And then when I saw this or these two posts that were contradictory, I was like, okay, I've had enough. I just can't take it anymore, you know? Um, so that's why that one got me. It was the straw that broke the camel's back, not the only post I saw, but but certainly the one that I thought this is just getting ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00: 8:53

So authentic, authenticity, authenticity versus uh non-authentic. Sounds you're on the authentic side of things.

SPEAKER_03: 9:06

I'm trying to be. Although um transparency and authenticity, I feel have some overlap, and I think that you can be overly transparent in your quest to be authentic.

SPEAKER_00: 9:19

Right, right. Uh TMI, too much information sometimes, you know. Correct. I think of somebody the way I see it is, you know, you I'm uh I'm being authentic. I go to this job interview, and you know, I always wear overalls and I live on a farm and I drive in my truck and I go to this job interview. Don't mind my muddy boots, you know, because this is what I do.

SPEAKER_02: 9:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 9:45

And okay, I know you that's authentic. I get it. That's who you are, but you also have to kind of play along with some of the social norms, like when you go for a job interview, you probably want to get dressed up. It probably not that's probably not how you dress every day or even once a month, but it might help to you're not being inauthentic, uh inauthentic or unauthentic, but you are trying to fit in. And you see what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03: 10:19

I do. I think I think also part of the issue is is that to try to like put you in a box or me in a single box is so um simplistic that just because I'm wearing a ball gown to a ball or you know, um a swimsuit to a pool, that doesn't make me an authentic. It just means that I am showing up with that part of myself, not my whole self.

SPEAKER_00: 10:45

Yeah, that's good. That's good. Uh you said LinkedIn advice is worthless because people are just chasing likes. How do you tell the difference between someone who's being genuine and someone who's just posting for engagement?

SPEAKER_03: 10:59

Um I honestly think it's getting harder. So, so I part of my issue with LinkedIn is that even like three months ago. So, why did I decide to start showing up on LinkedIn more? Let's just start with that to get to the point that I'm trying to make.

SPEAKER_04: 11:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 11:18

LinkedIn to me was very um cold. And it was like, I am looking for a job. Or um, I mean, if you remember when it first started or whatever, it was like, do I even, it was almost like I was giving you clout by by my association with you on LinkedIn. And people would give recommendations. Um, do you remember? I mean, I've deleted some of the recommendations that I gave since the beginning because I don't recommend these people any longer. Um, but also because you would be like, I have this skill, I have this skill, I have this skill. And I think it really was an online resume if you were looking for a job or if you kind of wanted to like go through um an index of, you know, like a Rolodex sort of a digital Rolodex of who is this person? This is their face, this is their credentials, this is how I know them, et cetera. So it gave you sort of um, you know, a one-cheater on the person that you were going to be meeting with or somebody you were researching or whatever. Then there became this, oh, LinkedIn is really a social medium. So let's start being more social. I liked that aspect of it. I thought that that was very good. Then it became, I swear to you, people were like in my DMs trying to date me. And I'm like, oh, here we go. Like this has gotten so different.

SPEAKER_00: 12:42

And when I decided LinkedIn is now Tinder. Wow. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 12:46

And it was, and I think that that I hope, at least for me, maybe I had enough um blockade blockades around me eventually that people knew better. But um eventually it became, well, it can be a lead gen source for you because it is the only B2B network. So when I was like, I'm going to really spend time trying to cultivate my relationships, then it was, I'm gonna start sharing the same way that I share content on Instagram, which is about my trips or the food I'm eating or my family, in a way I used to on Facebook. It became now I'm gonna start sharing things I've learned that I think might be relevant to other people, or thoughts I have that might resonate with people. And it be now I feel it's AI driven and it's people who are like put in a prompt. What am I trying to achieve? How can I sound smart, etc.? And you know, everyone knows how you kind of find what topics are trending or whatever. And so I think that people are playing the LinkedIn algorithm and it's ruined LinkedIn for me.

SPEAKER_00: 14:40

Yeah, and they're wasting their time and yours.

SPEAKER_03: 14:43

And and potentially I'm wasting my time and theirs, you know. I don't really know anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 14:48

Yeah. So okay, so yeah, I mean, going for trends uh from a marketing perspective, you know, marketing us and marketing have always done that, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 14:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:58

Kind of keep your ear to the ground to see where pla people are going, headed. Um, but lately, and I think it's just because I'm getting older, um I find that I just want to help people. And it's not a it's a mat it's not a matter of I don't know if this is a trending or not, but I know like for example, my brother and I did an episode about how to get promoted at work. And then I did another episode about how what to do when you don't get promoted at work, which is the bigger of the two issues, I think. Because people don't know. I see people falling all over themselves, making all kinds of stupid mistakes when they don't get a promotion. And so what what do you do when you don't get the job? Stuff like that, you know, trying to help people um overcome objections or hurdles at work, and I don't know if that's trending or not, but that's just me. So I guess that's me being my authentic self. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 16:01

No, I'm sure that is true. I mean, I think that even when I met you, that's what you were doing. You were just trying to be helpful.

SPEAKER_00: 16:09

Right. Yeah, well, that's true. I hope I was. You talk about people building brands. Do you think it's possible to build a personal brand on LinkedIn and still be authentic?

SPEAKER_03: 16:20

Uh, million-dollar question, right? I don't really know. I'm trying to, I'm trying not to chase engagement. I'm trying not to um chase trending topics. In fact, sometimes I think I'm gonna post about something and then I see five posts about it, and my inclination is to do the exact opposite of jumping on the trend. It's like, ugh, I mean, now I won't touch it with a 10-foot pole. If you know anything about me, that's how I feel about like clothing and stuff too. I kind of want my my own thing. So when things become too trendy, that's when I tend to step away.

SPEAKER_00: 16:56

But you want to be the influencer, not the influenced.

SPEAKER_03: 17:00

But see, I don't want to be an influencer either. I just want to do my thing, you know? All right, and if and if and if you like that and you gravitate towards that, great. And if you don't, it's also great. I I don't at the end of the day, I guess I do care. You know, everyone has feelings and emotions and egos, so so I don't want to be disliked. Um, but I but I also don't want to do stuff that's not me to chase engagement or likes. And I and I think that that's you know, at the end of the day, that's about you and you. So if some people's brand is to show up one way, that's probably very similar to who they really are as a person. You know, and maybe and maybe they're authentically inauthentic. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00: 17:55

A little bit?

SPEAKER_03: 17:56

Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_00: 17:57

Yeah. Drew McClellan uh he talked about uh your logo is not your brand. Uh what your customer thinks of you your business is your brand. Like Disney. Um when I said the word Disney, you immediately pictured something.

SPEAKER_03: 18:22

Fun family entertainment.

SPEAKER_00: 18:23

And so they work hard to do all that. They work hard to get everybody to think like that. And so, you know, uh you and I both have a brand. Uh, we try to help people see us in a certain way, but ultimately it's gonna be up to them how they see when they see Scott Townsend, what do they think? I have no idea. I hope it's good. But the brand of Jacqueline Bernie, you know, you present, you you are and you do, and uh you make decisions, and this is your authentic self, and then people see your they form an opinion, the brand of Jacqueline Bernie. And and we hope that it's a good one. And and you know, Disney, I'm sure, hopefully.

SPEAKER_04: 19:13

You tell me.

SPEAKER_00: 19:16

No, I your brand is great. Um your brand is great. Why is it great? Uh, because I remember 15 years ago, 20 years ago, whenever that was, uh, we were there having a good time. Uh very personal, helpful uh introduced me around to some folks, and it just seemed like everybody was having a great time. You were having a great time, and and I remember being totally energized uh by that presentation. And uh then I we were big on Twitter back then. Remember, we were all doing the Twitter thing, and uh that was so much fun. Uh so yeah, uh your brand. Um you know, I th I think funny, uh engaging, effervescent, uh, helpful, smart. Those all come to mind when I think of Jacqueline Bernie. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 20:10

I don't hate any of those.

SPEAKER_00: 20:13

But I think we all have those, uh, you know, we all we all we all have a brand, and some and sometimes I think we don't pay attention to that. And uh uh we see ourselves one way, but we're presenting ourselves in another way. And you know what I'm trying to get with that?

SPEAKER_03: 20:32

I do. So so for me, um, and I know people frame brands in many different ways, but the way we do it VI, and and really I'm not sure, you know, if if the chicken or the egg came first. Um to me, a brand is a promise. Uh, I never want people to think one thing of me and then for me to show up differently, because I think that that's where inauthenticity comes in. And again, when I was saying that some people are authentically inauthentic, it's like that's that guy, that's that girl you know who's only there to climb a ladder and is and is gonna take down everyone in their path and doesn't actually care about you. You know, what you were saying is helpful and caring, and I think all those are true and humble. I think you've always been really, really humble, and I think that makes you very approachable. Um, if I thought you were approachable and I saw you somewhere and you were snarky or or like, you know, turn your shoulders. Oh God, the worst, the worst. Um, I think then that's when you you have eroded your own brand. And so, and so for me, and then you know, to go back to this post specifically, or what kind of set me off is why why show up somehow just for likes? And I'll tell you something. In fact, you know, never meet your heroes, they have that saying, I this was probably three or four years ago, but I was on LinkedIn and I saw the same post from two people. But but it was almost verbatim. Let's say there was like, you know, two or three words changed, and both of the people had posted it as if it was their own experience or their own content. And that's when I got the ick, um, the first ick from LinkedIn, because I was like, both of you have tens of thousands of followers, and you are pretending you're not citing, you're not reposting, you're not saying, I read this somewhere, you're you're, and I think at the time I unfollowed both of them. I met one of them at a conference, um, let's see, March or April, and I had to kind of like reset, uh, because I do think that that's pretty common too, is that the the copyright on LinkedIn posts is non-existent. Everyone's just grabbing and and resharing. So it's like, you know, you'll see the same quotes even attributed to different people. It's just, it's just weird. And I think that that's what just kind of set me off was it's like I'm trying so hard to share what I'm actually thinking. And these people are just trying to get follows so that they can get more follows so that they can sell something or whatever. And that's what bothered me because it was in the form of giving out helpful advice.

SPEAKER_00: 23:41

Right. They were acting like they had you your best interest at heart when really it was their best interest. Correct. And you can see right through that.

SPEAKER_02: 23:49

Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 23:52

Yeah, AI, uh it can be authentic, inauthentic, inauthentic uh AI is when you see these posts all the time. Now you're seeing posts of animals attacking children or a bear running into somebody's yard, you know, and uh and and and the person who's post posting it is posting it as if it really happened. And it didn't really happen.

SPEAKER_03: 24:20

Right.

unknown: 24:21

Anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 24:35

We were talking about uh Jurassic Park and how uh you know ILM is always trying to use their computers to make things look extremely real. Right. But you know that you you go into the movie and you pay money to see it, and you know you're being tricked, you're paying to be tricked, and you know that this is a trick.

SPEAKER_03: 24:56

It's entertainment, you're being entertained.

SPEAKER_00: 24:58

It's entertainment, yes. So, yeah, so you're buying into this whole thing, and no one's Steven Spielberg's not saying, No, those are real dinosaurs we were shooting.

unknown: 25:05

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 25:06

Yeah, it's a documentary, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 25:09

So I think uh think about authentic and and and stuff. Uh it's how you use technology too. If you if you're using uh chat GPT, but you uh leave a footnote or something saying uh some things or thoughts were generated with the help of chat GPT or something like that, that's authentic. But if you don't mention it, don't say anything and you pass it off like it's your own, now we got an off uh inauthentic problem.

SPEAKER_03: 25:39

For sure. And and to be clear, I think that AI is very useful. I think it can be in creative iterations. I can't, I think it can be in creating efficiencies within a company. Um even helping clean up some of my grammatical errors. I mean, what was that that everyone had a few years ago, grammarly or something? That was AI.

SPEAKER_00: 26:03

Grammarly, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:03

You know, and and no one thought that was problematic because you were paying for the um this this tool that helped you sound smarter by cleaning up. I I think that using AI to do that is fine.

SPEAKER_04: 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:17

To your point, having it, you know, giving it a one-word prompt and saying, or or you know, one sentence write me a blog about this or something is crazy. And and again, where is that information coming from? But it's no crazier than the guy posting the exact same LinkedIn post and pretending it was his too, you know? And some people have no problem with that. So I guess more power to them, but I think it'd be good for people to just be a tiny bit more cautious.

SPEAKER_00: 26:49

So that that's a really good point, you know. Uh you know, the question, how do you know if someone's being authentic or not? I think people are going to become more judicious, more judgmental when it comes to the people they follow. And so if I see a post by Jacqueline Bernie, I'm probably going to and you have to work at this. I have to work at this. I I know that I'm gonna trust you because I know you and I know um what you've done in the past in marketing and in the social media, and so but there's a lot of people that I'm not gonna trust because I don't know if they're I don't know if it's real or not, you know. So I think it's really important that we protect or guard that trust that people put into us, those that will click on our comments or whatever. And that's gonna be earned, and then you know, it's really hard to get the trust, but it's so easy to lose it. And for sure. Yeah, so uh it um it I feel a greater responsibility to make sure that the people are getting the real me and not just uh not fall into the trap of well, I'll uh put in a prompt here and act like it's me.

SPEAKER_03: 28:16

It's not right. I guess you know, from one point of view, if you're looking for information and you find it valuable, it doesn't matter what the resource was, maybe.

SPEAKER_00: 28:29

Um true, like you get it from Wikipedia, or you go to the library and Encyclopedia Britannica, Google, whatever.

SPEAKER_03: 28:36

Well, think about this, okay. Even even you saying that, I think about how I used to Google things. And you knew, if you knew anything about marketing, how quality scores were created and how important it was for the information that you were getting to be fact-based or coming from sort of, you know,.org resource or whatever the case is. And then if you recall, let's say you were looking up something, and I'm just gonna use this because this was one of the examples I was given, something about Britney Spears, but then you were going to a plumbing website, and it's because they had bought the Britney Spears um whatever. Why am I not using my paid search terms? But anyway, they were paying for the search terms.

SPEAKER_00: 29:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 29:19

And um, and then you get there, then the quality score for that brand or that website would be very low, meaning the amount that they were paying for the clicks was very high. Now I trust nothing on the internet because it seems that Google is using AI and um and well, well, any search engine that you're using, but then you go to chat and I saw a thing the other day, and it was like this question, it was something like, is this mushroom poisonous? And it was like, no. And then the guy eats it, and it's like, Yes, you're correct in assuming that you shouldn't eat this or something. And it was like because the prompts or wherever it was getting was information, the guy's like on his deathbed, you know. And again, my point being that when we were looking for things on the internet, and I'm I mean, I can go back to the beginning of the internet where there was like published journals, and that's the only thing that you could search for information and you had to cite your sources, and then it was Wikipedia, but you knew that Wikipedia was being edited by whomever, and so they, you know, people would even log in and change things just to be like cute. So when was the last time where any resource that you were actually, you know, using had factual information? If you look, I mean, even in the textbooks that we were taught off of, somebody had edited large portions of history out of them, you know. So, so what can we really trust? Yeah, what can we even really trust? Uh, and I say that because that's the problem for me with LinkedIn is if you're going to LinkedIn thinking you're getting 100% truth, you're you're you're foolish.

SPEAKER_00: 31:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 31:09

Now, am I trying to be helpful? Sure, but I'm only as helpful as the information that I have at my at my fingertips and and the site, the the sources that I've used or whatever. I mean, you can't even, you know, what you were saying because of AI, trust your own eyes anymore. So who knows?

SPEAKER_00: 31:31

I uh yeah, for the longest time I thought uh was George Washington couldn't tell a lie that he you know chopped down the cherry tree. I thought he did that for the longest time. And then what what what do you know? It's just a story.

SPEAKER_03: 31:44

Yeah. Um I mean, are you even real? Am I having an interview with the person? Is it a bunch of recordings of you that have been morphed together?

SPEAKER_00: 31:53

Uh this is this is a part of the matrix. This is uh, and you're you're falling into my yeah, lair here. There you go. It's uh that is scary. Uh the big program.

SPEAKER_03: 32:07

You had no idea I was gonna be so weird, did you?

SPEAKER_00: 32:10

No, it was great.

SPEAKER_03: 32:11

This is great.

SPEAKER_00: 32:13

I was gonna ask you that one line you said, I have no idea if you should be authentic or not. The follow-up question, were you being tongue-in-cheek there, or was your what that was that your way of saying the answer really depends on context?

SPEAKER_03: 32:26

You'll never know, will you?

SPEAKER_00: 32:27

Well we'll never really know. No, no, I do think this is all made up, so don't just don't pay attention to anything you just heard. Who knows? This is right or wrong, you know, it's it's a free-for-all, it's the wild, wild west again.

SPEAKER_03: 32:40

It is the wild west. I I do think that authenticity is ultimately the way to go. You know, you were talking sort of about cynicism and the way that you need to look at everything with a discerning eye, and I think that that's still true. But I think also the relationships that we build on LinkedIn are still really the reason to be there. And so if it seems um like there's more than meets the eye, there probably is.

SPEAKER_00: 33:23

Time, yeah. Uh I was gonna say something about time, but you know, time to know if someone's authentic, if they're trustworthy, time usually helps take care of some of that. Because people can only put on a show for so long, you know. And then you see them slip or or they you you see their true colors and you're saying, ah Yeah, I had a feeling about that.

SPEAKER_03: 33:48

I usually have a gut feeling, but I think that that has been um cultivated over time because I think that you know, the more times you catch people being inauthentic, the easier it is for you to pick it up, you know, from the jump.

SPEAKER_00: 34:08

Right. I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_03: 34:11

So when we're all little kids, you know, we think everyone's great until they kick us or they push us down or spit in our face, whatever, pull our hair, and then we're like, nope, I don't like you guy.

SPEAKER_00: 34:23

What kick me once or kick me once? It's your fault, kick me twice, it's my fault.

SPEAKER_03: 34:28

Yeah, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. And that is absolutely true.

SPEAKER_00: 34:33

Right. For listeners who want to post meaningfully without falling into the trap of chasing likes, what advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_03: 34:43

So when I decided um to get on to LinkedIn, it was because I was at a conference in Barcelona and there were three women who were um from Spanish-speaking countries, but they all you know spoke English very well. But they were talking about how in many Latin or Spanish-speaking countries, they don't even use their full names because of safety reasons. And how it's hard to um show up and and give people like a look into your world and then trust that they won't um do something sinister with that. And I thought it was really interesting because, you know, in America, I feel like we're a little bit safer, so we don't really worry about those things. Uh, but but the the gist of it and why I started really thinking about it was even these women who had to go through that were saying, if you are a business owner, or let's say you're in BizDev and you are not showing up, then you're letting your team down. And I thought about that and I'm like, how interesting. Because I have my Instagram private, my Facebook, I used to, anyone who, you know, sent me a friend request, I would be friends with. Um, and then LinkedIn, like I said, I had been a little bit more judicious about who I was um adding as as connections because to me that was an indication that I believed in what they were doing as a business or correct. And I just felt like that was a little weird because my, you know, I don't, I mean, not this sounds what's the word I'm looking for? This sounds egotistical, but but I do try to um be a person of integrity, um, both personally and professionally. And I never wanted to be inadvertently associated with someone who was not that. So I was very judicious about, you know, the connections I made on LinkedIn. And then I started thinking about how important that was that if I don't believe in what I'm doing and in the company and my people and bragging on them, like how unfair that is to then be asking them to help me grow this company. And and it was sort of a light bulb moment for me. And that's and that's why I decided to do it. And that's the long version of what I did to get to the next step. I think that either they suggested this in this conversation or I was compelled to do this. And so on the flight home, I wrote down my values and also like what I like to talk about. So, so, you know, what is important to me, what is, you know, it's like your pillars, your content pillars or whatever, but I made it very personal. What at the end of the day is important to me? And I kind of decided that that's where I'm gonna spend my time. If I were to suggest to a professional that's listening to this, and thanks for sticking with us, um, that's what I would do is think about who you are and what you stand for, or if you were trying to sort of reposition yourself or reimagine what you're, you know, going to accomplish in your lifetime, is to write, write things down and then to hold yourself accountable to those. Because I think if you're accountable to yourself, you are going to do a better job of staying true to those things. And I and I think that again, you know, and I haven't really thought about that until just right now. Um, I think that that's why this is probably so gross to me, is that these are professional people with personal brands. And when they're showing up inauthentically, it bothers me.

SPEAKER_00: 38:49

Right. Say that one more time, what the lady in Barcelona said. Uh what did she say?

SPEAKER_03: 38:56

So, so the the gist of it, and I'm not going to say it as eloquently as she did. And again, it was a panel of women, but but the but the thing that they were saying was it's like it's selfish of you not to show up as a professional on LinkedIn when you are trying to grow your business and then expect that your employees are going to want to help you grow this business. I mean, you're they're doing their job, which is, you know, in my world, it's marketing, creative, etc. Why are you not doing your job to write?

SPEAKER_00: 39:27

On LinkedIn or whatever.

SPEAKER_03: 39:29

Right. And so I was like, oh God, here we go. You know?

SPEAKER_00: 39:34

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 39:35

I know, I know. Dang it.

SPEAKER_00: 39:40

That's a that's a good point. I I like that. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_03: 39:43

Well, I mean, I think the other thing, and and this was the point of that, is that authenticity is a buzzword right now, but rightfully so. It's because people were so sick of um these sort of like iron curtains that you couldn't get past with these people that you were working with every single day, or companies that, you know, would tell you one thing and then you find out two days later that they're letting go of, you know, 90% of their staff because they've made some sort of decision that is completely um different than where they they what they told you that they would do or whatever. And so I think that that's why it is such a buzzword now is is that well, probably because AI is the exact opposite of authenticity. So, so it's it is a buzzword right now. And again, that's probably why that one caught me, because I just am tired of the buzz chasing. Like in a sea of everything the same, the best way to stand out is to talk about something different. But go ahead. But my authenticity is calling out the bullshit, you know, because I am for for lack of a better word, a very blunt, you know, sort of truth teller, and and part of part of my brand is is that some people don't care for that.

SPEAKER_00: 41:10

And that's okay.

SPEAKER_03: 41:11

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00: 41:14

That is totally okay. It is. Oh man. I I uh hang on a second. There was a book I just read. You'd probably like to read it. It's called the Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins. Somebody done like it, let 'em, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 41:37

Let 'em. To be fair, this is gonna sound bad, but I just want to be honest. I have not read that entire book. I got like two or three chapters in, and I felt like I had the gist of it. Um you know, I'm and and not that she's not fantastic. In fact, I follow her on uh Instagram and I listen to her podcast sometimes, but um, there's just so many books to read.

SPEAKER_00: 42:01

Oh my god, that's not good.

SPEAKER_03: 42:03

I feel like if I get if I get it, you know, the Cliff Notes version is sometimes helpful. I'm sure that there's nuggets that I am definitely missing, but um, I'll come back to that book.

SPEAKER_00: 42:13

Have you read Ogilvy on advertising?

SPEAKER_03: 42:16

I have, it was a long time ago though.

SPEAKER_00: 42:18

And uh My Life and Advertising by Hopkins?

SPEAKER_03: 42:23

No, that one I should also read. Okay, Claude Hopkins.

SPEAKER_00: 42:27

He's like he's like the yeah, he's he's he's the Yoda of uh scientific scientific advertising.

SPEAKER_03: 42:37

Okay, what's his story? Where's he from?

SPEAKER_00: 42:39

Uh he was he he's all about writing. This is like in the for 30s, 40s, you know. Uh but the but the principles and the and the uh uh practices that he talks about are tried and true and and really haven't changed.

SPEAKER_03: 42:57

Um no, I think I literally actually wrote something about him not that long ago. Hold on. When I saw his face, I was like, oh no, I know exactly who that is, because he okay, I did this whole thing. Um, do you know who um Edward Bernays is?

SPEAKER_00: 43:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 43:14

Okay, so that's how I came across Claude Hopkins, but I have not read his entire book, so I will.

SPEAKER_00: 43:20

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_03: 43:21

Need to do it. You said it's a good one, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 43:23

Yeah, it's a good one. But uh, yeah, we were talking about so many books to read. Uh if I could swing my camera around and show you, I could just got a stack of books here from the library.

SPEAKER_03: 43:32

I mean, I got books everywhere, and it's uh if I could just read professionally all day, every day, I'd be no, and that's and that's my issue, is is that I'm part, you know, part of the way through um the Edward Brene's book, I'm part of the way through what other one was I reading? Um Atomic Habits. Oh, yeah, it's like it's like clear. Yeah, it's like I get I get to a book and then I'm like super super obsessed with it, and then you know, my attention and whatever. So I have a Kindle that has all of my personal and professional books, and it's just kind of like, you know, the book du jour. Um, but I will add this one.

SPEAKER_00: 44:07

Are you on Goodreads?

SPEAKER_03: 44:09

I am not.

SPEAKER_00: 44:11

You know, Goodreads. Yeah, follow me. I'll follow you.

SPEAKER_03: 44:13

I will okay. Sounds good. I think actually I may have just joined it because there was something I had to do in order to get a book, or I don't know, but I shouldn't say I'm not on it. I think I am, but I do not use it.

SPEAKER_00: 44:25

Right. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 44:27

But I will.

SPEAKER_00: 44:28

Cool. Uh, I can't think of anything else. If somebody, if somebody wants to get in touch with you or has uh questions or thoughts about what we talked about today, how would they get in contact with you?

SPEAKER_03: 44:40

Well, first of all, please do um find me on LinkedIn uh so I can share lots more of my um sort of filtered thoughts, but mostly unfiltered thoughts.

SPEAKER_04: 44:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 44:51

Um I so you can follow me there, Jacqueline Lamar Burney. And then also um, if you want to just email me because you have a question, my email address is J B E R N E Y at T-H-E-V I B R A N D dot com. So Jberney at the VI brand.com.

SPEAKER_00: 45:11

I'll put all that in the show notes uh down below. Thank you so much. But anyway, thanks again for the time. Man, let's not make it another, let's not let it be another 20, 15, 20 years, you know. I know. Well, next time it's a good recurring marketing uh themed show.

SPEAKER_03: 45:29

I would love it. I would absolutely love it. And next time I'm up in your neck of the woods, uh, let's try to grab a coffee or something.

SPEAKER_00: 45:34

Sounds great.

SPEAKER_03: 45:35

Okay, thank you, Scott. Thanks for inviting me to participate.

SPEAKER_00: 45:38

Hey, you bet. Talk to you later.

SPEAKER_03: 45:41

Okay, bye.

SPEAKER_00: 45:42

Bye.

SPEAKER_01: 45:45

The Scott Townsend Show is a Dito Man production. For more episodes, visit the Scott Townsend Show YouTube channel, listen on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.