The Scott Townsend Show
Conversations, perspectives, and insight from some of the brightest minds, facilitated by everyone's friend, Scott Townsend
The Scott Townsend Show
#225 Bouncing Back After Rejection: How To Handle Not Getting Promoted Pt 2 w/Ben Townsend
Career setbacks happen to everyone, but how you respond to them determines your professional trajectory and future opportunities.
• The "tube top" comment highlights the importance of getting honest feedback after a rejection
• One word in an interview (describing a workplace as "hostile") can sink your chances if the interviewer takes issue with it
• Remember interviews are two-way conversations - you're also deciding if you want to work there
• Always be kind to gatekeepers (receptionists, assistants) as they can significantly influence hiring decisions
• Give yourself limited time (maybe 30 minutes) to feel disappointed, then refocus on moving forward
• The rearview mirror is small and the windshield is large for a reason - look ahead more than behind
• Building internal networks before positions open strengthens your candidacy when opportunities arise
• "Emotional resonance" with colleagues often matters more than qualifications when candidates are similar
• Congratulate the person who got the job you wanted - it shows maturity and teamwork
• Repeated rejections may indicate blind spots you can't see - seek honest feedback from trusted leaders
• Everyone successful has faced rejection - persistence and continuous improvement lead to eventual success
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Previously on the Scott Townsend Show. One of the things you mentioned also was asking for feedback. If you don't get the position, so how do you go about asking for feedback? That's you know. I've done that before and I've had unsatisfactory results with that.
Speaker 2:How so Unsatisfactory? In what way?
Speaker 1:Oh, number one. I think you already know why you didn't get the job. I think you kind of sort of know already. You know, but you want some feedback from others to tell you what your blind spots are. You know and see if there's something that you didn't realize. Now I did have one person and they just shot me straight as an arrow man. They were just like. I won't tell you what they said, but it was Next time you interview here.
Speaker 2:Don't come in wearing a tube top. Don't do it.
Speaker 1:I mean it could be ridiculous stuff. That tube top is a killer.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought to you by Dietzelman Productions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my resume is put on foam because I wanted it to stand out on their desk. You know, if they no, that should do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, use it as a lunch tray or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Didn't work, but anyway, you know you try things.
Speaker 2:Never know.
Speaker 1:It depends on what you know, what kind of position, how it was all marketing, you know, yeah, yeah, if you always about creativity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, If you're going to do that, maybe you send a resume in. That's like one of those fathead things, like a giant thing the size of a door Boy. That's kind of how you get attention.
Speaker 1:Yeah, stick it to their wall or their door. Yeah, people don't know how to give feedback and I think they're afraid to give feedback. They're afraid to tell you, uh, maybe, what your blind spot is, what you're not good at, because they're not good at.
Speaker 2:HR and their HR department may not allow them to do that I mean like.
Speaker 2:so that's very frustrating but, but you know, asking for it again shows how willing you are to be a team player and to conform to their expectations, you know, assuming that, um, they don't have to compromise anything in the process, and it's helpful, you know. So it's helpful to you if you can get feedback. So feedback, they say feedback is a gift. It absolutely is, uh, but it turned out to be good. Later I'm interviewing for another position. It was another management position and I went into the interview and you know some of the typical interview questions are you know what are some of the most difficult circumstances you know you've found in working and what would you do to make it different? And what would you do to make it different? I'm just like, well, I went into this one and the management team there, I would say, was a little hostile, for whatever reason. I'm not sure why.
Speaker 2:But here's what I did I just stayed persistent and worked with them and built a good rapport with people as I could, some of those people wound up leaving. They were replaced with other people who are much easier to work with and blah, blah, blah. There was four directors conducting this interview and what I found out later because I thought I had absolutely smoked that interview I mean I felt like I'd knocked it because there's nothing I didn't know, there's nothing I couldn't articulate well, and what I heard was one of the people there was a woman who I kind of gotten some bad vibe from before, you know whatever, but she's she's zeroed in on the one word that I used, which was hostile, and she goes. I don't feel like anybody coming in here should describe anything as hostile. You know they shouldn't do that.
Speaker 3:And so.
Speaker 2:I, I couldn't, I can't vote for his candidacy. That's what happened and that, and that's what I was told by some of the other one of the other directors who was in there to- he kind of gave me the background on it. I'm like okay.
Speaker 1:One word so.
Speaker 2:I'm like, how can I course direct yeah, which was a question you should ask? Yeah, and is using that word, you know? Is it really out of bounds If you're asking me for the most difficult situation? And I'm describing why that situation was difficult?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know I'm not in there dropping the f-bomb or, you know, saying something that's untoward or something you know it was professional. It's keeping it professional, of course, but that that sunk. To me that felt very unfair yeah but it's also like you know, if, if they're gonna, if they're gonna allow somebody to be sunk on something like that, you know, do you really want to be part of that organization right going to allow?
Speaker 1:somebody to be sunk on, something like that. You know, do you really want to be part of that organization?
Speaker 2:right? No, the answer is no because because listen, it's an interview, it's a two-way conversation and they've got a decision to make in there. But but so do you and you. And just because they make you the offer, and your goal should be to get the offer, but that doesn't mean you should take it, or that you know know if you decide that, yeah, you may decide that, well, I've got another offer, or, you know, after, after interviewing, I don't think.
Speaker 2:I don't think I'm going to choose to put myself under a leadership team that is kind of struggling to provide basic leadership, and I would rather have a strong management team, leadership team, and so I'm going to choose not to take this one I just got a better offer over here and I'm going to take that one, but you have it's a two-way thing. And just because they make it, they don't hold all the cards. You know, you hold some cards too. So you have a decision to make you talked about.
Speaker 1:You were talking reflecting on your performance. Uh, after the interview, talk about that for a little bit.
Speaker 2:If I come out of an interview and say, yeah, I was dressed for success, I kind of exuded positive attitude and I addressed everybody politely. By the way, the gatekeeper is in a process. When you go into an interview, be nice to the gatekeepers.
Speaker 3:Because they can sink you.
Speaker 2:And if you don't believe that, then you'll learn eventually. But they can sink you and they will sink you.
Speaker 1:That might be the most important thing that's said in this episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, stay in the game was the most important thing, but that's, that's right up there, I guess. But that's, that's right up there, I guess. But I don't know. I, I just you just kind of have a a good um feeling, because I didn't receive any, any negative feedback from any of the answers that I gave, other than my word choice in describing a hostile environment as hostile. You know, I don't know, I don't know, or she would have preferred, maybe she, she preferred that I would have said challenging, a super challenging environment. Maybe soften it a little bit.
Speaker 2:There's always something you can learn, but in the end it's kind of also can't take it back. Some of the stuff is like super, super nitpicky. I didn't hear. Well, you didn't know this. You stumbled on this answer, bob, I didn't stumble on anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and I know how to answer the the question in depth. If they have any follow-up question you, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Because I think I know the stuff better than you do. Now, of course you don't say that or you shouldn't exude that, they shouldn't get the impression that you feel that way. But when you really know your stuff and you answer the questions well, and you can go as far in depth as they want to. I think you can say that you pretty much knocked it apart and read the non-verbals in the room. You know, some people are hard to read. They'll sit there and they won't change their expression. Some people, as you're talking, they'll be nodding their head and smiling and go yeah, you know, I I thought that one time, if you get that, that's, and when you get those kind of cues which I did get, um, you know those, those are good things and so you can kind of evaluate your own performance.
Speaker 1:But you never know until you get the feedback and you you always have the opportunity to improve something, no matter what the other thing is uh, going along those lines is uh, how do you stay positive when you come out of a a situation and you don't get promoted?
Speaker 2:yeah, and that's staying positive, is staying in the game. And if you're not going to stay positive, if you know everybody experiences disappointment in the process, so that's what you feel. But how you respond is up to you. And if you're going to respond in a negative way or, you know, twist off on somebody, tell them what an idiot they are for not hiring you or go out of that room when you get your rejection, go out and bad mouth if you're part of the company.
Speaker 2:You go out, you bad mouth, you know people who are in there, you know you're just not doing the right things and I would say in that case they made a good decision not to give you the offer. You're not ready exactly you're not ready, yeah, if you, if you, if you can't stay in the game like, if you can't get out of your own way, you're not ready. You know, for whatever job they were just giving you, you wouldn't be my leading candidate if somebody did that.
Speaker 1:It's okay to be upset, it's natural. I mean you're disappointed, you're upset. Maybe even give yourself 30 minutes at lunch just to sit in the car and pound the steering wheel and you know whatever, but make sure no one else sees that. Or you do it with someone who you really trust, like your wife or your husband or whoever a good friend give. It's a natural reaction, let it out, don't try to bottle it up. But then, after the 30 minutes is up and this is part of your playbook maybe is okay, now we're done, done. You got all that out of your system. We're good. Okay, we're good, all right. Yeah, pat them on the bottom and say, okay, get back in the game yeah, I think yes what do you think about that?
Speaker 1:but?
Speaker 2:but I think, I think you know your human reaction. You know um, disappointment, you know being angry or something, that those are all natural kind of feelings. But are you going to allow your feelings to interfere with your success? And if you, I think I think it's natural to kind of give that a little room, kind of work it out of your system or whatever.
Speaker 2:But man don't give it much play, I think you don't really manage the amount of time you know and you got to get focused on why you didn't do well and think about how you're going to course. Correct is 30 minutes or a week. Whatever you know, whatever your strategy is, you can never allow whoever you're engaged with to see that you know you have, you have to come off, you have to present the polished person that you are.
Speaker 2:you know, if you it's kind of like, you know, when somebody really kicks you off, you know and you want to really work it out, and you write an email, you know, just go in there and put everything in there and tell them what a jerk they are, you know, and then now you've got that out of your system. Now let's sit down and let's rewrite that email and let's you know.
Speaker 2:but it's kind of like the rear view mirror, kind of little anecdote. It's like the rear view mirror is very small and the windshield is very large, and that's a good representation of how much time you need to spend looking back versus looking forward. So it's natural to be disappointed, but I would say, give that as little play in your head space as you possibly can and get focused on what you need to be focused on, which is responding in a positive way and continuing to sell yourself and keep yourself in the game.
Speaker 1:That's keeping yourself in the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's keeping yourself in the game. Yeah, you mentioned last week about additional training Toastmasters, things like that. You might find in your feedback session with a trusted advisor, mentor, whoever that you need some additional training in certain areas, and that's got to be okay, I guess. I mean, you want to know that and you need to invest in yourself. I think and if that's what's holding me back if I don't know Excel very well, or if I don't know how to handle conflict resolution, or I don't know how to speak well like I'm doing right now it's important that seek out additional training to shore up your shortcomings that process never ends.
Speaker 2:you should always be looking for opportunities. There's always something you can improve you can always be done and you can always do it better.
Speaker 1:Network internally. What's that all about? So you don't get promoted. So what do you do?
Speaker 2:you network internally if you're interviewing for a job internally in your company, that's awesome because you have access to the company directory, you know the people and um, you should take full advantage of that, and this is really pre-work. If you think you're going to be interested in promotion, don't wait until or or if you're interested in a position that that comes open. From time to time, you have an idea where you want to work. So get to know those people. Get to know them and make friends with them. Help them in any way that you can. Set up time and go have coffee with them. Don't waste their time. Find out what kind of things are going well for them, what kinds of things aren't going well in their area how you might be able to help them.
Speaker 2:How you might be able to help Yep and those kinds of things, because you're, you're building alliances and friendships in the process. I was reading something the other day and and it wasn't on this topic, but I think his, his observation and study applies here, and that is, whether you think it's good or bad. Emotional resonance is more powerful than truth.
Speaker 1:What's emotional resonance?
Speaker 2:My ability, your ability to emotionally relate to somebody and build a relationship and good rapport, is more important than your fact or your skill level. Maybe even the point of that thing was you would think that facts for people would be more compelling than an emotional argument, and with people that's actually not the case. Emotional resonance is more compelling than fact. And so in the context of an interview and building a network, that emotional resonance when you go into the interview and I'm looking at you and I've had coffee with you six times over the past 18 months and I've developed a relationship with you and a friendship with you those kind of things are kind of like uh, powerful emotional connections with somebody and, when it comes down to people of similar talent and skill level, you're going to get the nod if you have that kind of because they they know you're a known quantity to them. They already know that you're a culture. They're not taking any risk by knowing that.
Speaker 2:They don't know exactly how you're going to interact with the team. They know that you're not going to wear your emotions on your sleeve. They know that you're going to be level-headed and methodical and you care about the company and you're not just focused on yourself and everything. You're there to help them and other people succeed as well. You're just an excellent team player, and who doesn't want that? Everybody wants that, so if they already know that about you, the risk of your candidacy just went way down. Now it's all about do you have the job skill? Your candidacy just went way down. Now it's all about do you have the job skill. And it may be that your job skill is slightly less than somebody else, but the other person doesn't seem to be as as good of a culture fit, and so, again, you know, the weight goes to the person who's made those connections, who has done all the pregame work to be successful that just goes.
Speaker 1:So that goes to the getting the job portion. But why a network if you didn't get the promotion, why do you continue the network? Why?
Speaker 2:why don't I just stay in the game if you know you don't want to interview anymore. If you know you don't have any interest, then stop. And if that's the case, you need to go find yourself another department, another company or something like that. But if you're thinking, if a similar job comes up in the future, do you still want it? Would you want it? Nine out of 10 are going to get a rejection, so you got to decide in advance. If you want to be successful, how are you going to react if you're not one of those people? And just, in a way, it's kind of a numbers game. But there's things you can definitely do to improve your odds and get started about doing it. And if you're not willing to do those things, then again you're not the right person for the job. When it comes up again, you're not the right person for the job. When it comes up again, you're just not. So if it's something that's important to you, if it's something that you want, don't be viciously mediocre, you know, get on with it.
Speaker 1:I posted that video at the bottom of the show notes from last week's episode about how to get promoted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such a motivational thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you should continue to perform well after you don't get the job. Uh, people shouldn't be able to see even a hiccup in your performance. There should not be a blip in the. Uh. The ekg on the radar it's you know. It once again is a testament to your maturity and your skill level and your foresight.
Speaker 2:Yeah forget about what everybody else is saying about you. What is your commitment to quality? What does your brand mean to you? It's got to be more than what somebody else thinks. It's got to be what you think about your brand versus about what what anybody else says about you. Do you have a strong brand? Build your brand.
Speaker 2:I remember it went in that interview, by the way, with the, with the lady who didn't like my choice of words, um, describing it to the environment as hostile. Um, after the interview, I found out, uh, you know who who was successful and the guy who got the interview. I found out, uh, you know who who was successful and the guy who got the job uh, I know, I knew and I agreed that he would be a good fit for the role I did. I'm not mad at him, you know, for you know, succeeding in the process, um, you know he, just they, they chose him and I respected that decision. And you know I still wrote they, they chose him and I respected that decision. And you know I still wrote my letter of thanks to those people. I did before I found out what was going on. But then, when I found out, you know that this guy who I know won't mention his name, but let's call him Mike. When I found out that Mike got the job over me, I sent Mike a note and I said hey.
Speaker 2:I was also interviewing for this job. You got the job and I offer my congratulations. I think you're very deserving and a great fit for your new role and if there's anything I can ever do to help you be successful, reach out and let me know. That was it.
Speaker 1:Now you're in the 0.00001% Because no one is going to do that. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's a good move, and you know.
Speaker 2:So I had, I had a good relationship with that guy and it was a strong relationship until I retired. I quit, I just decided that I really didn't want to be in that environment for a number of reasons, and so I decided not to pursue those kind of opportunities and I could have let's talk about that for a second considering other opportunities.
Speaker 1:let's talk about that for a second. Considering other opportunities maybe you should consider some other opportunities. If you keep getting turned down for a position or positions, uh, maybe, uh, is it a good thing to consider lateral moves or actually moving to another department or jump ship and go to another company? If, if, what you're doing and just just make sure you're doing it all right and it's not because of you, but if you're doing everything right, should you? Is it a show of weakness or not staying in the game If you start looking for a lateral move, another department or actually moving to another company?
Speaker 2:If you're continually trying to get a position and time after time after time, you're getting rejected for the interview or you're getting rejected for the job, let's say something's probably off. You've got a blind side, most likely that you don't see, and so I think it'd be time for some honest self-assessment. And boy, it's hard to find somebody who'll be honest with you because they're afraid you're going to get mad or it's. It's just hard, like you said earlier, to give people feedback. So you really want to find somebody who is a good leader, because a good leader will give you good feedback, you know, and so I think you really should pursue that.
Speaker 2:But it may be that you're just not a good fit. You know. It's not a good culture fit. It could be that too, you know. So you gotta, you gotta consider all those things. But something probably, um, but more than likely, there's something that you don't see about you and your fit and how you're preparing or not preparing, whatever. There's something in there that you may be blindsided by. So when you try to do an honest self-assessment, you may be continually looking over because you don't see it. By definition, it's a blind spot. So you've got to find somebody who's going to be honest with you and let you know what those things are. Yeah, I think, if you do those things, I think your odds of success go way up and you become you actually become a better employee because you're you are performing at a level, hopefully, that is ready for the next level, and your attitude is good and you're a team player and you're just attractive in all those ways to a company in a very competitive environment that needs a good team.
Speaker 1:So if you can be that person, you're going to get your opportunity and promotions take time and you go through interviews and whatnot and you get turned down. And I know I was talking to Jordan Roberts about this. I interviewed her on the show she's our store manager and she was talking about how she had been turned down, like all of us have, for positions that she was wanting, and so she just made up her mind that the next time I get interviewed, the next time a promotion or opportunity comes up, there is absolutely no way that they can't or can't not hire me or however. However, however, you would say that that there's no way that I'm not going to be the person I'm going to. I'm firing on all eight and I'm in that. So that means from now until the next opportunity, which you don't know when that's going to be.
Speaker 1:It could be three months from now, four months from now or next week, you don't know. But okay, so I's going to be. It could be three months from now, four months from now or next week, you don't know, but OK, so I'm going to be positive, I'm going to. You know good networking skills. I'm going to continue to get trained, all that stuff you know just. And so when that time comes up and there's another opportunity and you throw in for it. Opportunity and you throw in for it is like there's no way I'm not going to hire this person because they are just stack the odds in your favor. Listen to this podcast.
Speaker 2:Listen to it every day some people just have a kind of like you can look at. They just have a charmed existence and they just zoom straight to the top. Chances are they do all the all the um, the right things. Well, um, and that's the reason why they've gone to the top. There's naturally good at, they probably made a study of it and they just they're an, a player. You know, before the other 99 of us, like jordan, um, we all have had disappointments in the process.
Speaker 2:You can talk to somebody who is a manager. They're a manager, they're an executive, whatever, whatever level. All of those people I mean you can pretty easily say all those people have tried to get a job at one time or another and didn't get it, or were laid off at some time in their career and and now they've made it, and so every one of those people can tell you about rejection and how they didn't get a position that they hit energy for. Yet here they are, they're a manager, they're a director, they're an executive director, they're their vp, and if they can do it, they experience the same thing and you can do it too. And so let that be encouragement to you that all those people to be successful, be successful.
Speaker 2:You just have to be persistent and you just have to stay in the game and you just have to be constantly improving your game. That's all there is to it yeah, there's no short of those things you're going to wind up. You know everybody's cut out to be, you know, a top executive kind of person, or wants to be or wants to be, but everybody wants to be good at what they do.
Speaker 2:I think it's those who really try. You may not have the stuff to be the absolute best software engineer, but you can be a really darn good one. You never stop trying to improve your own game in what you do so that you can be the best you can be. It may not be the very top person, but you never know until you try. You'll never know how good you can be at something and you'll never maximize your own potential until you start doing some of these things right and I think a successful career can be built on that.
Speaker 1:Well, that was a good discussion what to do when you don't get the promotion. If you have any questions, comments, concerns regarding this topic, this discussion, send them to scotttownsendinfo info. Uh, you know, leave a review, subscribe like, share this interview with uh, maybe you've got kids, college kids college friends, people that are in the job market, and you know, or not, even kids, I mean heck, anybody. If you're in the marketplace, um, this episode's for you because you're going to need this episode at some point. So, anyway, last few words, turn it over to you.
Speaker 2:These are just some of my things I've learned from being in the trenches on both sides of the equation, so people may find there are other things you know in this process that somebody could speak to, based on a different experience. So this is just mine. If it's helpful, that's great. If you don't find it helpful, that's fine too. This is just my experience and my experience is different than other people's. But I enjoyed the discussion. I think it's good questions, good discussion. I do think there's things that people can learn from people who have been through it before. Whether they've, you know, succeeded or failed, there's always something to learn. So hopefully this, this discussion, will be that right, that's it okay.
Speaker 1:Well, for ben townsend. This is scott townsend. Thanks for watching, listening to the scott townsend show. Have a great day.
Speaker 3:Everything's gonna be all right and we'll talk to you later. The Scott Townsend Show is a Dietz-O-Man production. For more episodes, visit the Scott Townsend Show YouTube channel, listen on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows you.
