#223 How To Get Promoted At Work w/Ben Townsend

Video that Ben mentioned  https://x.com/WarPath2pt0/status/1887864859515121904

In today’s rapidly shifting workplace, how do you navigate career advancement while balancing merit-based promotions with diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives? In this episode of The Scott Townsend Show, I sit down with Executive Producer Ben Townsend to unpack the evolving dynamics of promotions, hiring decisions, and the broader corporate landscape.

With 40 years of business experience, I’ve seen firsthand how environmental, social, and governance (ESG) standards are reshaping corporate priorities. But what does that mean for your career trajectory? We discuss how investment firms and executive evaluations are adapting to these changes and the real impact they have on leadership pipelines.

We also dive into high-stakes industries like engineering, surgery, and aviation—fields where skill and precision are non-negotiable. Can prioritizing diversity over meritocracy have unintended consequences? We take a hard look at cases like Boeing’s struggles, the growing concerns around competence in critical roles, and how government policies are responding to these challenges.

Join us for an honest, thought-provoking conversation on how companies can balance inclusion with excellence—because in the end, both matter.

If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, please send an email to scott@scotttownsend.info.

Video that Ben mentioned  https://x.com/WarPath2pt0/status/1887864859515121904

Chapters

• 0:00 Promotion Strategies in the Modern Workplace
• 6:48 Merit-Based Promotions vs. DEI Initiatives

Transcript

Brittany McCullough: 0:00

Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought to you by Pizza man Productions.

Scott Townsend: 0:08

What did you have for breakfast? Egg.

Ben Townsend: 0:12

Yep, yeah, I went with a two-egg setup this morning.

Scott Townsend: 0:18

Oh, two-egg setup.

Ben Townsend: 0:19

Two eggs and some coffee. Yeah, I'm trying to strip some of the carbs out of my diet. Yeah. So having going through this whole shoulder thing, you know, sitting in a chair and not being able to do my regular stuff, not being able to do my workouts, all that kind of thing, right, just packed on a few extra pounds, no big deal, but, uh, time to lean it back out a little bit.

Scott Townsend: 0:54

So so today, yeah, I'm glad, glad you're here. So this is, yeah, ben townsend, executive producer, this kind of towns show, and uh, we were, uh, I wanted to talk about. Something came up at work the other day and so I wanted to get your thoughts on it, and that is there's a lot of young people at work and some opportunities for getting promoted came up. There was some moving around people shuffling in positions. It's kind of a domino effect person moves over here, gets promoted, so then that leaves a vacancy here, which is going to need a vacancy here, and blah, blah. So it's a big chain reaction, you know.

Scott Townsend: 1:36

And so, um, a lot of people put in for uh, promotions going taking the next step, and I saw a lot of mistakes, for mistakes just, uh, I'll call it mistakes uh, that people were executing, going through uh, bad decisions, uh, not, not, not in a good headspace, or, and so I you know, it's probably a good idea to have an episode where we talk about how to get promoted, bottom line, I mean, there's all kinds. Then we'll talk about it. How do you get promoted? What's the best way to get promoted? Is there only one way? I don't know, but there was a lot of people going about it a lot of different ways, and I thought you know what it's. Obviously no one's talked to these people about you know protocol and the right way, so I'm going to throw this one over to you.

Scott Townsend: 2:38

First off is how does a person get promoted? And so I've got 40 years in the business. I've seen a lot, experienced a lot, I've made a lot of ton of mistakes, a lot of ton of mistakes, yeah. And so I don't know why I'm talking. I just keep talking. So I'm going to shut up right now and turn it over to you?

Ben Townsend: 3:06

How do you get promoted? Yeah, and, by the way, I think another term for mistakes is experience.

Scott Townsend: 3:12

Yeah.

Ben Townsend: 3:12

So you know, people want to hire people with experience because it just means they made their mistakes on somebody else's dime and so presumably they're not likely to commit it on your dime. Somebody else's dime and so presumably they're not likely to commit it on your dime.

Ben Townsend: 3:27

you know, when you hire somebody with lots of experience people basically who have already made the obvious mistakes um, but I think you know I think I think your question about you know how to get promoted is a good one, because I, I don't think it's as cut and dried as it maybe was at one time.

Ben Townsend: 3:43

Um, you know, because I think there's a there. I think there's a a uh, very large context for this discussion and I think part of that context is kind of like what's going on in, you know, in the political realm right now, what the societal changes that we're going through. If you, if you go on to, for example, fidelity or, you know, vanguard, and I think this is changing, and I, I was on, you know, you're you're like, hey, let's do, I want to do, let's do a podcast and I want to do it on um, on how to get promoted, right, so we just had this conversation right. So like I don't have anything written down, you know to uh, or or really much prep, but I was yeah, this is off the cuff, yeah yeah.

Ben Townsend: 4:39

So right before this call I was trying to get back on fidelity because I've seen before researching companies, you know, and these companies have what they call an ESG score. So it's environmental, social governance and it's how well companies are conforming to the social change that's being pushed by people. You know, investment firms by people.

Ben Townsend: 5:07

You know investment firms, I think famously or infamously, you know, blackrock and larry fink have kind of been front and center as in pushing this esg score for companies. It basically says how well are you doing with your diversity hires, one way to think about it and I'm not an expert in it, but I know something, something about it and I know that you know, for companies, executives within companies, they're scored on, they have their own scorecard, like when you're, whether you're at executive level in a company, you have a scorecard and you have to hit, you know, certain measures for whatever's important to your company Reduce cost, increase revenue, grow the talent, all kinds of things like that and a lot of those are very, very productive. Those are good things and you should be scored on that in my mind. But there's also this whole push for ESG and DEI.

Scott Townsend: 6:05

What's ESG stand for?

Ben Townsend: 6:06

environmental social governance oh, you said that okay yeah, uh, and so that's kind of at a high like an investment level. You know when you're, when you're researching fun. I just pulled up real quick conoco phillips, just uh, I don't know why their, their stock symbol, came top of mind. Cop, I just pulled it up real quick. And on Fidelity, and I didn't see the ESG score and it was pretty ubiquitous like several months ago. You go on there and it's kind of irritating to me because I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with the success of a company, with the success of a company. And I think the more complex the industry you know, the more ESG initiatives when you have ESG or DEI initiatives over competency and merit the more complex the industry, the quicker it's going to show up, because you can't fake being an engineer, you can't fake being an accountant, you can't fake being a rocket scientist.

Ben Townsend: 7:13

You either have those skills, airline pilot, airline pilot, aeronautical engineer you either have those skills.

Scott Townsend: 7:20

Surgeon.

Ben Townsend: 7:21

Or surgeon or you don't. You either have them or you don't, and I don't. You know you either have them or you don't. Um, and I don't know about you, but if I'm going in for a brain surgery, I'd prefer to have the guy at the top of his class rather than the guy who just kind of squeaked by because, uh, you know, somebody at the school had a quota to fill for, fill in the blank, xyz. That's what you know.

Ben Townsend: 7:48

That's why I think, uh, and it's pretty well believed that this is the problem that boeing has specifically, is that you know that they've been promoting people based on something other than a meritocracy, just to put it that way, like very simply, and I think that's worked its way through industry and I think it's gotten pretty intense over the last decade, and I think a lot of people you know who are in management positions, executive management positions, have kind of cut their teeth on their commitment to these what they call kind of like this I'll just call the DEI initiative and so how to get promoted. So there's big change happening right now that everybody can see is very visible at the government level and they're stripping this kind of thing out of the governmental process.

Scott Townsend: 8:47

So how can you argue with being diverse? How can you argue against diversity?

Ben Townsend: 8:54

How can you argue against it?

Scott Townsend: 8:55

Yeah.

Ben Townsend: 8:57

I don't think the argument is against diversity. I think the the argument is that is is what they term equity, and equity is not equal opportunity. Equity, in their mind, amounts to equal outcome. And so if you don't have the the right number of people, you know, with a certain diversity profile, then you have to promote people, regardless of whether they have the merit or not, into those positions, and and so I think it's morally wrong to do that. That's my position. It's morally wrong because I think what you should do is give people the opportunity to compete for whatever job or education or whatever, so equal opportunity is a good thing, equal opportunity our doors open.

Scott Townsend: 9:52

Anybody can apply. That's good, right and but the but. The problem is the equal. What'd you say?

Ben Townsend: 10:00

outcome, equal outcome yeah that's where it gets sticky equal opportunity, I think, puts you right in the center of your moral obligation that's what I believe sure, I believe everybody give everybody a chance give.

Ben Townsend: 10:14

Give everybody a chance, give everybody an equal chance. Yeah, you don't care if they have a fill-in-the-blank minority profile or whether they're a straight white male, right. You know, we've kind of been at the bottom of the the disaffected pyramid, um, and you can skip. You know, if you, if you want to be something else, you can, you can, you can change your diversity profile and you can. You know, kind of, uh, you can, um, declare that you're now homosexual or transgender and kind of skip right to the top.

Ben Townsend: 10:46

So there's a little bit of a game going on with it, and I'm not making a judgment on whether or not somebody should do that. I mean, I have my own personal beliefs, but I also believe that you know, with a, if you're trying, if you're running a company, you've got to just accept the fact that there's people of all different stripes out there and you need to give everybody an equal shot. And this is why I think it's so tragic. You know that the failure of public schools, the failure of public schools, it tends to be worse in minority populations. If they don't have the same access to quality education in these minority communities, then in the end they're not going to have the same kind of access to compete for jobs, and not because people won't want to interview them, but fundamentally, do they have the education they need to succeed in a high paying job?

Ben Townsend: 11:36

And so I think it's a real disservice of our government not to have more focus on good quality education. You know, I think the united states is falling behind in um. You know the the stem pursuits um, and so you don't have as many engineers or doctors um things like that.

Scott Townsend: 12:04

So but it seems like they're all fooling around with peripheral issues and not the core. They're all distracted. It seems like the school systems are distracted with these peripheral I don't know how to say it initiatives, instead of just reading writing arithmetic, you know the good old basics. We're fooling around with questions that, okay, drag queen reading libraries, you know, and trying to promote gender this or gender that or not, this or not, that Stuff that, when we were growing up, wasn't even I mean, it was not within a million miles of what you know where we were. So we get so caught up and people start arguing about it, and then you start getting people mad and and it's just this huge distraction. Hey, how about if we get back to reading writing arithmetic, you know?

Ben Townsend: 13:07

yeah, I think there's a huge consensus on what makes sense, but the people who are pulling the levers, um, are cutting, you know, in a different direction and not going with where where americans really are with their consensus, and that's what all the changes we're seeing now. But you know. Back back to how to how to get promoted yeah well, I mean it is, it is part of it but.

Ben Townsend: 13:31

I don't want to get off on a rabbit trail but, but my point to all that is this change is happening pretty quickly right now at the government level and government and regulation has has driven the companies in america who are subject to governmental regulation. It has driven them to to, you know, kind of have get in line with certain uh behaviors, let's put it that way. And so you have lots of people in those companies who have cut their teeth, like I said, in growing their careers, you know, aligned with these things. And you know some of them are just doing it because that's what's required of them and they're in their executive position kind of creates a moral dilemma for them. They're going to decide am I going to compromise my own kind of sense of morality and do these things, or am I going to, you know, go somewhere else? You know that may be a different company or somebody who kind of had those moral beliefs where you have more alignment there. So it's going to take a while it's happening at the government level. It's going to take a while in industry for this to ripple through industry. And I say that and I think it could take a while. Some places are very resistant. Costco is kind of famously very resistant right now to changing their position on these things, even though their board is just think it will, and I hope so.

Ben Townsend: 15:16

But if you're a person I'll just say this who is a visible minority, then I think you're okay. If, visibly, somebody can look at you and say you're a minority, whatever that means, then I think you're probably okay, regardless of where you are. If you're a person who's not visibly a minority, then I think, in order to get promoted, I think you have to do an honest assessment of where your leadership is in your company, because leadership is everything and that's what's going to drive whether or not you're on equal footing with other people to get the promotion you want and to progress in your career, on equal footing with other people to get the promotion you want and to progress in your career. And so for some people it may mean doing that kind of honest assessment and if, if your company looks like it's coming around or is aligned, you know, with the creating environment where you actually can succeed, and that's great, stick with it.

Ben Townsend: 16:21

If not, I really think people should consider going somewhere else where they are more in alignment with leadership, because otherwise you can put all your effort into getting promoted and have it all be for naught because things just kind of aren't going your way. Things aren't just kind of aren't going your way and you know the executive of your, of your company, don't value those things as much as they value other things that you don't happen to possess, you know. So I think you got to consider whether or not the company where you are is is a company where you can flourish, and if it's not, for whatever reason and I'm just saying this has kind of been this, this whole dei context but it's a huge social governmental shift right now. It's going on and it leads right into the question you're asking. So I would say, like, right off the top, I think that kind of assessment, if you want to get promoted, is is an is an important.

Ben Townsend: 17:23

I believe we're returning to meritocracy and I think that's really really good for business and I think it's really really good for individuals, right, who want to succeed in life Well and who who put in the reps who have put in the reps, who have put put in the mental gymnastics to master or be extremely proficient in a skill or something Right, and not just because I'm an Indian, american Indian Right.

Scott Townsend: 18:00

Yeah, so it doesn't take any skill to do that.

Ben Townsend: 18:02

No. So how to get promoted? I think number one. I had a white-collar job. I was a product manager for a big data platform. It was very technical, it was pretty intense and I loved it. I loved it, man, I loved the business, I love the subject matter and I loved building great products for my customers information products it was. It was great, um, but if you're, if you're in the information space, for example, make sure that you know you, you have, you possess the skills, not for the level that you're in, just for the level that you're in, yes, but you have to possess the skills for the level you aspire to, the level to which you aspire, and so skills are extremely important. That gets into education. That gets into education. But once you have the basic education, the degree, you know, the wallpaper that says I am a whatever, and keep those skills up and keep, keep them fresh and always invest in yourself.

Ben Townsend: 19:10

Yeah, just continue to invest in yourself. A lot of it you can benefit from, like on the job training, once you have the, the degree. Get in there and learn your company's implementation of technology, for example.

Ben Townsend: 19:23

This is the right it's just a technology context, but fill in the blank with whatever else, and I think that's that's hugely important, because it gives you the foundation, the building, the number one foundational building block on which you can build a successful career. And then beyond that, you know, it's kind of like it kind of gets into some things that I guess are maybe like soft skills, but, man, you know, just show up and be on time, don't, don't come in late, you know yeah, that's the number yeah that's.

Scott Townsend: 20:00

I see that so often, uh, right now, and it's amazing to me that, uh, people don't get. They want to be promoted and they want to be the leader, but they can't show up on time, right? So what's that all about, you know, if you don't have the discipline to to figure out and this goes back to problem solving too the problem is, I got to get to work at eight, so how do I do that? Well, you set your alarm clock for whatever, but if you can't figure that out and you're always late, number one you can't solve. That tells me you aren't very good at solving problems. And number two you solve. That tells me you aren't very good at solving problems. And number two you're disrespecting yourself, you're disrespecting your team, you're disrespecting your boss, and and then they wonder why they don't get promoted. You know, why didn't I get the job? Well, you know, basically number one.

Scott Townsend: 20:52

You just keep showing up like you. Just you're give a crap. Meters flat on zero, seems like. So don't don't be getting surprised. Don't be surprised if they don't pick you, if you can't get that's employment 101. Yeah, it's pretty fundamental and Scott Turner talked about it on our podcast not too long ago about the importance of being on time. I'll put that in the show notes so you guys can listen to that later. But anyway, yeah, yeah.

Ben Townsend: 21:20

Beyond time is a huge one. Be on time because it shows, like you said, it's just basic respect and truly, when I say basic respect, I'm talking basic, basic respect. Yeah, and you know, if you, if you, if you aspire to leadership and you're running you, let's say you're a software engineer and you're making $150,000 a year and you want to get promoted, you know, to be a, a, a, a director man, next level, whatever that next manager level is in your company, and you're going to manage a team of software engineers at $150,000 an hour A year, so huh000 an hour A year. So huh, I mean a year. Yeah, if you figure, if everybody on your team is 15 minutes late and I can't do the quick math here, but you know, and you got 15 members on the team you know you have an off-the-top $500 loss in productivity every single day, right off the top, and so if your habit is being late, you just need to understand that does not scale well to leadership, because when you're in leadership, those kind of things matter. Productivity matters hugely. And so people aren't just saying you know, be on time, because they're just, you know the old guy and they just, why don't they get? So their panties in a wad over, you know, coming in on time, right? Well, it's because those kinds of things.

Ben Townsend: 22:50

Companies exist, you know, to make money for their stockholders or their owners, whoever, and the people that are there just need to possess that very basic level of respect. And if you want to get promoted, these are the kinds of things that people look for. Do you, do you have the basic leadership skill? You know you can't. You can't come in late every day and then get into leadership and then show up and be, you know, real hard nosed about trying to get people to come in on time. People are going to look at you for what you are and kind of a fraud, you know, a hypocrite, and that doesn't scale. Well, people, you know people, people don't. They won't be on that program. So that's, that's a basic one.

Scott Townsend: 23:31

So how much? How many people did you say show up, okay, and you're in your uh, you got 15 people, 15 people, so that's uh, I was doing the math here while you were going on and so that's uh. Let me see one okay, that's gonna be.

Ben Townsend: 23:49

That's a one 15 people, 15 minutes divided by 60 minutes that $19 every minute.

Scott Townsend: 24:01

So if they're, oh, I'm sorry. The other thing you need to do is start with your math skills.

Ben Townsend: 24:10

I'm 15.

Scott Townsend: 24:19

That's $292. You just almost $300 that you just pissed out the window. If you have 15 people showing up 15 minutes late.

Ben Townsend: 24:29

Right and you hadn't started the day and you hadn't even started the top off the top.

Ben Townsend: 24:33

It's just that, that loss in productivity every single day, yeah, so there you go. Wow, and you know a lot, along with showing up on time if you're running a meeting. I think communication skills are really, really important because, in the end, communication, leadership is all about communication. It's my ability as a leader to communicate what the goals are of what it is. We're trying to accomplish whatever that is and motivate people to help you accomplish that goal. That's what it is. We're trying to accomplish whatever that is and motivate people to help you accomplish that goal. That's what leadership is.

Scott Townsend: 25:05

What do you think about Go ahead?

Ben Townsend: 25:07

I was just saying you have to work on your leadership skills, work on your speaking skills. Those kind of things are really important, because your ability to communicate is directly related to your ability to lead.

Scott Townsend: 25:19

Ghostmasters is a good place to learn communication skills, speaking skills.

Ben Townsend: 25:25

Yeah, and another thing organization when you show up to a meeting. If you're running the meeting, it is amazing to me the number of people that have a meeting and they do not show up with an agenda, they don't publish an agenda, they don't show up with a specific agenda and they just kind of hop into something and are we going to accomplish anything today? I don't know, we'll see where this conversation goes. Maybe we will, maybe we won't, but it's amazing to me. So, if you're setting up a meeting, invite the people you want to invite. Don't invite too many people. Invite the key people, the people that need to be there. Invite them ahead of the meeting. Publish the agenda when you get into the meeting. Stick to the agenda. Start on time, end on time. This again, this is the kind of like basic respect, because people are going on to their next meeting. After they, they leave yours most likely.

Ben Townsend: 26:14

Right and there's no. You know, if your meeting starts at one and ends at two and the next meeting that somebody's going to their meeting starts at two and ends at three, there's zero time between two o'clock the end of my meeting, and two o'clock to start the next meeting.

Ben Townsend: 26:30

So it's so hard to shift gears yeah, and you got to think about ending your meeting five minutes early. Depending on how big your building is, if it's next door, it's not a big deal. I worked in a building that was a half a mile long, so it could be that I have a 10-minute walk. I'm not kidding.

Scott Townsend: 26:50

To get to where I'm going next, or 15 minutes.

Ben Townsend: 26:53

So you've got to think about those things, depending on what size you're building, but those kind of things basic organization and time management skills, I think, are very, very important. Of course, again, all this is on a foundation of competency and you possess the skills of the job you currently have, and if you aspire leadership, you have to have the skills of the job you want as well. If you don't have them, that's okay, go get them. Work with your manager and and or director or whoever you report to, and they it's amazing. You know people as as a leader myself. If people came to me and wanted to know and this did happen who come to me, and they would be asking what kind of skills they need to get to the next level. And that's music to my ears, and so it tells me that they're on your program.

Ben Townsend: 27:42

They recognize you as a leader and they want to make sure that they align so they can accomplish organizational goals. That's a great team player if you've got somebody like that. If you want to impress the heck out of your boss, go to them. Those kind of conversations Not saying so when am I going to get promoted? And ask them, tell them where, where you would like to go, and ask them what kind of gaps, if any, that they can recognize that you should be working on so that you can get to that next level and then take the feedback.

Scott Townsend: 28:17

Don't get defensive you know, don't get offended. So it's like going to ben, going, hey ben, I really want to get promoted. You know, I'm really good at what I do. I'm really chomping at the bit to get promoted here. So, you know, can you tell me about how to get promoted, because I'm really excited, you know, and about this new opportunity and I think I do a really great job and, um, versus hey ben, uh, hey, mr townsend, is there anything I can do to take some stuff off your plate? Is there? Uh, I've got all my job, I've got all my tasks finished. Is there anything else that you would like me to do? Or I got a project that you need help with that I can help you out with. There you go Instead of me, me, me, me, me, me. How can I help you? How can I help the team Team? Team team.

Ben Townsend: 29:08

Yep, and you'll notice all these things are all in alignment with making your boss successful. If you go in every day with the goal of making your boss successful and this is just this isn't just about butt kissing, this is about respecting your leader's role in the company and they're they're trying to accomplish something. And if they got 15 people on their team with 15 different ideas about how we're going to get from A to B, it's fine to have the ideas, but at the end of the day, you have to be able to. It's like watching the Super Bowl when the quarterback goes up and snaps the huddle. He's called the play. Now everybody's got their assignment on that particular play. If it's at Very specific.

Ben Townsend: 29:54

The quarterback's going to get the ball, the receiver's going to run down the field, the offensive linemen are going to be in pass blocking, all those kind of things. But if you call the huddle pass play and as the tackle's running up to the line and he goes, I don't want to do a pass. I'm going to do run blocking.

Scott Townsend: 30:10

I'm going to go try to clear up the line.

Ben Townsend: 30:12

I got an idea, yeah, and the tight end says no, no, no, I don't want to go out for a pass this time. I think I'm going to go help block down on the line somewhere, as if we're running a run around the end or whatever. Everybody has their different ideas. It's obviously not going to work. That's the way it is in a company.

Brittany McCullough: 30:35

Thank you for joining me. Scott Townsend Show. We'll be back right after this.

Scott Townsend: 30:46

Before we continue, the best way to support the Scott Townsend Show is by telling friends, family members and becoming a patron at patreoncom forward slash the Scott Townsend Show. Patreoncom forward slash the Scott Townsend show. So yeah, we have awesome perks, personalized videos, personalized episodes, all kinds of cool stuff at different tier levels. Patreon allows us to do the show full time, part time, anytime. So thank you so much for your support.

Ben Townsend: 31:19

You know you have an obligation out of respect for your boss and his position, whether you agree with him or not.

Scott Townsend: 31:27

um to close on the vision that he creates Because you, you are hoping we're just assuming right now that you're wanting to be in that position at some point, and so you know it's like treat other people the way you would like to be treated. If you're going to be in that position, wouldn't you want a team that helps make your job easier? Wouldn't you want your team to say hey, ben wants us to attain number 10 and we get to 10? Awesome, that's what you want, you know that's what you want.

Ben Townsend: 32:06

So all these things align to to making your boss look good, perform well, and again, this isn't it could be about butt kissing, but seeing plenty of that too people. But people who just see it that way, I think are missing the boat and and an excuse.

Ben Townsend: 32:23

You know, yeah, they really do have, they really are. You know, if your leadership, if you're under bad leadership, you can't win, and this, this is uh, this is a hard lesson to learn from a guy who's been in the trenches, you know. And so if that's the case, then you need to go find the leadership that you can work under that you basically respect. So if you're under patently bad leadership, be honest with yourself. Don't just explain away your own problems on somebody else's inability.

Scott Townsend: 32:59

But what about telling? Somebody here's how you get promoted Go above and beyond, do more than what's expected, take initiative on projects and look for ways to add value. Sounds good. How do you do that? How do you go above and beyond? What does that mean? Do I need to stay two hours past my shift, do I? What's that look like?

Ben Townsend: 33:27

Yeah, I mean for me. You know, I would, I would, I would literally go to my boss. It's not that I didn't have enough to do, I just love to solve problems. I love to solve problems within my discipline and I don't care what the problem is or whether or not somebody thinks think it can be done, because it can always be done and it can always be done better.

Scott Townsend: 33:49

Right and sometimes.

Ben Townsend: 33:50

sometimes it's a it's a matter of do I have enough budget, you know, to do it, because I'm going to need X, y, z. I mean, I'm going to need this other skill set I don't have right now on the team and that skill sets are people are expensive, especially when you get into, you know it's kind of higher skilled disciplines.

Scott Townsend: 34:07

Expertise.

Ben Townsend: 34:08

But it may be that you know you have a solution, you've identified a solution and you have something you know that you've been able to kind of solve and you have a plan to get there. You have clear path and you make a proposal and it's just too expensive and that's fine, you know. But you can present that and say, well, here's, here's how we can, you know, solve this thing and here's, here's what the cost is going to be, and present that to the management team and it may or may not be worth it to them to spend that. But if you go in trying to solve a problem, a lot of times you can do it without spending money. It's really about changing the priority of work and things like that. That's another hard thing.

Scott Townsend: 34:46

Maybe your solution saves money.

Ben Townsend: 34:49

Yeah, yeah, Hopefully it should. I mean anything you're working on. If it's not increasing productivity, then you really shouldn't be doing it. Meaning setting costs, bringing in additional revenue, bringing in additional value. If it's not doing those things, then you really shouldn't be doing it. I would tell them.

Ben Townsend: 35:14

If you have a problem that you don't have time to work on, or whatever problem you have, just give it to me, I'll take care of it. You know, and so, and sometimes you know they they a lot of times. It's amazing how many times they they wouldn't do that, because I think that you know they also don't want to be shown up you know.

Ben Townsend: 35:33

so you have the kind of the people thing too, but I love solving problems and, you know, I kind of made it kind of a career for myself out of finding ways to do things that everybody else said couldn't be done right.

Scott Townsend: 35:50

I love that. Yeah, I love people tell me you can't do that after I just did it. Yeah, yeah, what do you mean?

Ben Townsend: 35:58

I just did it I also have people as a leader. People would come up to me and they, they would come to me with problems and I would listen to their problem and say, okay, well, what do you propose? A solution. And a lot of times, the the first few times, I would get like a blank stare because they didn't. They didn't come to me. It's fine, and I think you should come to your leader with with problems, but never, ever go to your leader with a problem that you don't have a proposal for a solution right, that's right, but you get the idea, yeah so go go with the problem and say and here's what I recommend, what do you think?

Ben Townsend: 36:45

now you know your leader sees that you're. You're not just bringing problems, you're not just being a sneaky wheel.

Scott Townsend: 36:50

It's a serious problem, yeah you're in the end.

Ben Townsend: 36:53

You're trying to help him accomplish what he's tasked you with doing. Here's something I found. Here's what I recommend. Do you agree? Do we want to try this or do you have some kind of other? That's the ultimate in respect, and that that's the ultimate in um showing your leader that you are capable yourself of leading yeah, it's you know, your leader already has enough problems.

Scott Townsend: 37:19

I mean they have problems, they, they, they wake up and they've got problems. And so who are you to go? Uh, I got this problem. See you later, gee. Thanks, I needed another one of those. No, it'd be so much better. Yeah, just like you said, here's a problem, but I got a solution. I think it might work.

Ben Townsend: 37:43

Here's my recommendation. Here's my recommendation, whether you like it or not. Yep, and then let the discussion go. It may be a great recommendation. Your leader may find an even better approach, but that's okay, as long as you have made a serious effort to come with a recommendation that you really think is going to make things better, given this problem, and you want to have a discussion. You've cleared the hurdle and now you have a discussion with somebody who is engaged with you in problem solving, and that that, to me, is a fun process. Right, it is.

Scott Townsend: 38:19

Brainstorming and going back and forth. You know your solution might not be 100%, but a part of it might be what helps get to the solution, you know. So just even the smallest part of your suggestion might be the catalyst that helps find a solution. So that's really cool, yeah. Whether they adopt it wholeheartedly or at certain aspects of your recommendation have merit. What to them? To let them know, because that's your job, which is number two, and that was to be a problem solver. That was one of my other uh, ways to get promoted is and we've just now talked about it be a problem solver.

Ben Townsend: 39:08

Practice being a problem solver, so we can skip that one yeah, and hopefully you have enough autonomy in your job to problem solve in line, you know, right, in line with the problem.

Ben Townsend: 39:22

You have the autonomy to problem solve, hopefully, like, but if you don't have that, or you you have that and you hit a problem, it kind of is kind of like a next level problem where you have the autonomy, but you really are kind of like churning on the best approach.

Ben Townsend: 39:43

You know, take those to your hit, those to your boss, along with your recommendation of how you think you should proceed and see what they say. But but at that point, like for me, when I, when I first started this, my team would come to me with problems, and they wouldn't come with very few, would come with a recommendation for how to go forward. Then I would just tell them you know kind of like what my expectations were when you come to me with a problem, come also with a recommendation, you know, because I want you to have thought through this so we can have a more productive discussion. And so it wasn't very long at all to where people, if they had some sort of problem doing our one-on-ones, they would come with a recommendation, and it was just the way we did things from that point forward. It doesn't have to be confrontational.

Scott Townsend: 40:26

Right.

Ben Townsend: 40:26

It shouldn't be confrontational, it shouldn't cause stress, right, it just requires you, as a leader, to be purposeful, so you can do something like this when they come up and say, hey, I got a problem.

Scott Townsend: 40:44

Instead of just dropping it on their desk, the leader goes so do you have any suggestions on how to solve this problem? No, not really. Okay, well, here, take this back and think about it and when you have something that you think you can recommend, let me know. After a couple of times of that, then they're going to learn to get this out of my hands. I got to come up with a solution because he's just going to kick it right back to me.

Ben Townsend: 41:16

Yeah, and as a leader, this is how you develop. This is one way you develop talent. You get your people on your team to be thinking like a leader, not thinking like a follower, and that is a big component. I believe in developing talent. There's other things for sure, but that's one.

Scott Townsend: 41:38

The next thing develop a strong work ethic.

Ben Townsend: 41:44

Yeah, yeah, I think, along with being competent, having the skill set, it gets boring to do the same thing over and over again. And it's just amazing to me that that's some people's comfort zone. They just want to do the same thing over and over again. And it's just amazing to me that that's some people's comfort zone. They just want to do the same thing over and over again just because it's easy and they don't have to think. And I sent you that, that video the other day about the guy who said something about you know you can be. We have a very short time on this earth and you can. You can either waste it, being viciously mediocre or show the fuck up.

Scott Townsend: 42:29

I'll probably bleep that out, Cause mom wouldn't like that but that's what he said.

Ben Townsend: 42:33

So that is a quote, and I can't tell you how much that quote resonates with me. Yeah, I can't stand mediocrity. I can't tell you how much that quote resonates with me.

Scott Townsend: 42:39

Yeah, I know I can't stand mediocrity.

Ben Townsend: 42:41

I can't, and and for me personally, I will. I want to have child. I want to have a hill to conquer.

Scott Townsend: 42:48

Yeah, yeah, it's fine.

Ben Townsend: 42:50

I don't want a charted course necessarily Right.

Scott Townsend: 42:54

I know it's fun to be a pioneer.

Ben Townsend: 42:59

Yeah, right, I know it's fun to be a pioneer, yeah, especially when you're a subject matter expert and there's really nobody I don't want this to sound the wrong way there's really nobody who can tell you a lot more about all the inputs to a decision. When you're a subject matter expert Doesn't mean that you shouldn't take advice from other people and seek other people's opinions and blah, blah, blah. But it just means that if you really are a subject matter expert, opinions and blah, blah, blah. But it just means that if you really are a subject matter expert and you get turned loose on a decision to solve a problem in your area of subject matter expertise, that's like gold man. That's like if you just give your work meaning and and that's where you really start to be able to add value- I'm going to add the link in the show notes to that video that you sent to me, okay it's a good one.

Ben Townsend: 43:43

Yeah, the opening comment there has a little bit of uh, a bit of uh spicy language, but after that, you know, it's kind of a goosebumps kind of thing you watch it it's motivational and I love that kind of thing there's nothing like, you know, develop a strong work ethic, that's yeah.

Scott Townsend: 44:01

And there's nothing to me, there's nothing like working with the team, when they work hard and they work well. I was at denver one time at a conference and we I'm not gonna go into all details, but there was a lot of work to be done in a very short amount of time and everybody pitched in. Everybody did their thing. They were hustling, they were moving, everybody knew what they had to do and they were getting it done. We got it done and I remember getting in the car I was riding with someone they were driving I'm sitting on the passenger side and it was just so exhilarating being the leader of that team and everybody performed.

Scott Townsend: 44:48

We had to. I mean, there was somebody else, there was another group come in right behind us taking over. We were at the Rocky Stadium, so there was another group coming in to do their conference, you know, and so we had to beat all of our stuff out of there and it just felt so. It's just so awesome to be a part of a team that executes well and is willing to work hard to meet the goal that was. That's just cool. That's just cool to me yeah, yeah next step is master.

Scott Townsend: 45:22

I would recommend master your current role, which to me means stay in your lane. Uh, don't be looking over the fence at someone else's department. Don't be trying to tell somebody how they should be doing their. You know, this is how I would do it. Just master what you're doing, perfect what you're doing. Um, just keep your eyes forward, stay in your lane, do your job and figure out how to do it Well, because people are going to see it and they're going to want you. They're going to want to be a part of of that. They're going to want you to be a part of their team, because if you can do it for them, then you can do it for me. What do you think?

Ben Townsend: 46:06

no, I, I agree and I mean we kind, of you know, talked about that with with education and getting in and learning everything about your role and being performant in that role and if you want to, if you want a promotion this is really important for people to hear If you want a promotion, you have to be performing at the level of the position you want, not just at the one you currently occupy. So you have to be showing to whatever degree possible. You need to be showing ability at the level of the role that you are seeking and be performant at that level before you expect a promotion and I am you know so I think it's really important and getting your, getting your boss.

Ben Townsend: 46:52

I had a woman, young woman, one time on my team and well, she had high expectations. I hired her from outside the company this wasn't an internal company, but I hired her from outside the company and she wanted to be, you know, the executive manager for the entire department in the first three months, you know, and she was just kind of fresh out of school, I mean. Her expectations were high, and so she was telling me that, how long, when am I going to promote a blah blah? And so I had like, okay, so slow down here, slow down.

Ben Townsend: 47:28

There's lots of people who want a promotion and the reality is, no matter what people tell you, you have a, you you're usually working within a limited budget, your leader's working within a limited budget and they can't give everybody the kind of raise they think they deserve and they may be deserving of it, but in the end it's kind of a forced ranking kind of thing, regardless of what they say. That's really what's going on. And so you have to find a way to stand out, way to stand out, and but as a leader and this is what you should be looking for from your leader you need to know what kind of you need. You need a development plan. You can.

Ben Townsend: 48:10

It'd be a great idea to recommend a development plan to your, to your leader, to say this is what I think I need in terms of a development plan. These are the kind of things I think I have to get me from where I am to where I want to be. What do you think and what would you say, now that you've kind of seen all this, what would be your recommendation for my development plan? What do I need to do? What do you need to see before you think I would be ready for my next role?

Scott Townsend: 48:38

It's a very mature question. It's a very confident question. It shows confidence. It shows maturity Because you know one of the goals, one of the other things I wrote down here how to get promoted is express your career goals. That's exactly what you're talking about and build strong relationships. So you can't build strong relationships If you go in, like you said, coming in guns blazing, and just you know powder burns everywhere Cause you're just firing as fast as you can, as hot as you can, and just you know everybody's, like I said, leaving work every day with powder burns all over them because you, you're just coming on so strong and so hard.

Ben Townsend: 49:22

I've seen that happen yeah, by the way, for that that young woman you know, we worked on a development plan and she took it to heart and she worked on her development plan and I agreed to give her some things would help her to demonstrate her progress in that role. And before I left that area I can't remember where I hired her in, but before I left that area she had promoted. I promoted her twice into a senior role and so that that was. It was great success because she had high expectations. It's funny because she came back actually years after I left, three years after I left that area. She had gone to Houston and she came back in this area and she set up a coffee with me.

Ben Townsend: 50:11

I went and talked to her and she just basically told me that she, she, she was recounting that conversation and saying how pivotal that was for her and kind of understanding how, how the process works and how to approach people and how to grow her career because she had gone on. She was a lead by that point. So that that was not. I don't. She was a lead by that point, so that that was not. I don't have tons of stories like that one. I have several and I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but that to me as as a leader, those that, those are some of my proudest moments as a leader you know, building and and and.

Ben Townsend: 50:55

Helping people to succeed in their careers because you should, you, oh yeah. And helping people to succeed in their careers.

Ben Townsend: 50:59

Because you should be doing that and you should be thinking about. You should be having a discussion as a leader with your people about what their goals are, where they want to go, because it may be that their goals have nothing to do with anything you have to offer in your department. They may be working there just biding time because they really want to be an aircraft mechanic, whatever, and you're just in the blank, so, but you should help them go there as well, because that's what they really want to do, that really is their passion, really what they want to do. Then they need to go, do that and you need to backfill that person with somebody who really wants to work with them and the disciplines that you manage on your team, and then everybody's happier.

Ben Townsend: 51:37

And it's not a well, I got to find a way to get rid of you. That's not it. It's about helping people succeed with wherever they are and where they want to go next. If you do that effectively, you'll have a higher and higher concentration of talent on your team that's highly motivated, wants to be there and is looking, and everybody is performing in a way to get to the level where they want to be, and then you have a high-performing team. That's what everybody wants.

Scott Townsend: 52:07

Ken Rusk said that very thing in his book Blue Collar Cash, and he's also been on the podcast. He said he'll take his employees and ask him what are your goals? You know, what do you want in life? What are you looking forward to? Um, I want to go to college, or I want to buy a house, or I need a new car, uh, whatever Good, okay, uh, I'm going to try to help you get there. You know you're, you're working're working for us now and, uh, we're going to write your goal up here on the wall and every once in a while, I'm going to ask you you know, so how's?

Scott Townsend: 52:45

it going, getting that, you know getting that car. Or, uh, have you got? You know how is it saving for college, or how's the college search going, or you know just just anything I can do to help you get there you know, yeah and I really thought that was really great.

Ben Townsend: 53:03

So, yeah, that's a great point you just made, as you well know yeah, one other thing I would say is just like when I, when I, when I was, when I was in a leadership position, when I first got to a leadership position, I was not.

Ben Townsend: 53:25

I can speak well, I can write, I think very well yeah but when I, when I first got my leadership position, I was not a confident speaker. I was not a confident speaker and it was a gap for me. And so you know, I um, I joined Toastmasters and you referred to that.

Scott Townsend: 53:47

I went to a meeting with you one time. That's right, that was cool.

Ben Townsend: 53:51

Yeah, it can be fun. You know, these are all processes and like a guy told me you know this guy he was, um, he was in very advanced stages of failing health, very advanced, and one of the things that he he told me this is not in relation to work, just life doing things right you never, you never stop wanting the next thing.

Ben Townsend: 54:17

You know you never. When you're, when you're, uh, when you're a kid, you want, you want to get your bicycle. When you get the bicycle, you want to get your car. You want to graduate. You can't wait till you graduate high school. You can't wait till you get in the college that you want. You can't wait to finally get your degree. You can't wait to get your job. You can't wait to get married. You can't wait to have a child, can't wait to buy a house.

Ben Townsend: 54:37

This guy is in his 80s and that process never, ever stops. They, the, the objects just change. I can't wait to sell my house so I can move into assisted living. I can't wait to get you know. Uh, I want to take this trip, whatever it never, ever ends in your lifetime, ever. So.

Ben Townsend: 54:58

I think that's something important to think about. You know, as you're young, because one of the I think one of the keys to having you know joy in your life, with what, what you're doing, with, whatever level you're at, is enjoying the process. So that was a big takeaway for me and it's like right now I'm rehabbing my shoulder cause I have rotator cuff surgery and I'm enjoying the process of rehabbing my shoulder. It's painful, it's frustrating, but I am. I am enjoying the process. So I'm putting my money where my mouth mouth is and I'm enjoying the process.

Ben Townsend: 55:32

We're building a home right now still in this little apartment, which we are very grateful for, but we're building a home right now and they're out there painting right now and we're really looking forward to moving into our house and there's nothing wrong with that. But you have to find a way to enjoy a process, even like building a home and people, you'll hear more horror stories than any other kind of story about building a house, horror stories than any other kind of story about building a house. Right, because people, if you will, if you go buy a house, you're just sitting there and you look at it, go, yeah, I'll take it. You have no idea what problems a builder had when they were building that house and how they had to overcome those things. Right, that's the sausage making, and some people cannot handle the sausage making. They can't handle the sausage making. They want to buy the end product, but they cannot handle the sausage making. They can't handle the sausage making. They want to buy the end product, but they cannot handle the sausage making.

Ben Townsend: 56:22

So if you're you, know, so you can enjoy those things yeah, you can, instead of dreading them, and and you can enjoy those things. So development, like going to toast masters you can enjoy that too, and it is. It is enjoyable because you're, you're getting something out of it. You're, you're going in as a underperforming speaker and when you come out, the other end of that pipe, the other end of that process, you're going to be a better speaker. And you may not be the best speaker, but you're going to be a better speaker. You're going to improve that skill and seeing that journey, seeing that improvement along the way super encouraging. So all these things you know are processes and uh, and you can enjoy all those processes, including these conversations with your boss.

Scott Townsend: 57:08

You really can. Yeah, man, ben just wrapped it up. I really don't have anything else. I really don't have anything else. That's funny. Oh, man, you just. I mean, yeah, welcome to the Ben Townsend show.

Ben Townsend: 57:30

I'm a behind the scenes guy oh man, that's so hilarious you're right, I can't.

Scott Townsend: 57:37

There's nothing more for me to say yeah, you really wrapped that up.

Ben Townsend: 57:47

So thank you for coming to the Scott.

Scott Townsend: 57:49

Townsend show. No, I really like how you ended it there, with enjoying the process. There's a lot of gold in this episode today. It's worth a re-listen. If you're out there driving, you're out for a jog, maybe you're on a treadmill, maybe you're on a stationary bicycle or taking your dog for a walk and you're listening to this, I hope you'll listen to it again, because there's a lot of gold that's been dropped in this hour and there's more actually to speaking to this topic. The next topic I want us to talk about next time is what to do when you don't get promoted, and so that's a whole nother, you know, fraught with landmines, and there's a way to handle that and there's a way not to handle that. So maybe we can talk about that next time.

Ben Townsend: 58:45

But yeah, and the other thing is, you know, I would just say, having a conversation like this makes me feel like a complete hypocrite, you know, on some things, because I've got scars. I got scars from doing things wrong and, in course, correcting and that kind of thing, um. So it's really just like you know, over your lifetime you know it's making all those, uh, all those mistakes and you know, kind of course, correcting, um, which gave you the experience, which gives you the experience which gives you the experience.

Ben Townsend: 59:18

And so you know I'm because I'll tell you this if somebody had told me when I was 23 years old and you know, just saying, oh, just enjoy the process of, you know, getting into your new house, I can tell you right now I wouldn't have listened to them, not really I mean I would have heard the words and I don't.

Ben Townsend: 59:34

I wouldn't have outwardly said you know, that's stupid, that's the stupid thing I ever heard. I wouldn't have outwardly said you know, that's stupid, that's a stupid thing I ever heard. I wouldn't have done that, but it would have been in one ear and out the other. Yeah, so I, there's going to be a lot of people, if you know, people listen to this, they're going to hear that and it's going to be in one ear, not the other. And I understand I'm you can't kid a kidder, so I, I get it.

Ben Townsend: 59:57

But I think I think wisdom, you know, is listening to somebody else who's kind of been through, uh, and made the mistakes already and applying it to your life, even though you haven't hit that decision point yet, deciding ahead of time, listening to the wisdom of people, what they have to offer, as long as it aligns with your core belief systems and you have basic level of trust. I think that's wisdom, you know. Listening to people and finding little nuggets that you can apply your life. So that's just the way I choose to live my life, you know. I choose to live my life more of a attitude of thankfulness and enjoying the process. That was a huge takeaway and that was about a year ago when I had that conversation with that guy and I talked to my father-in-law and I had this conversation with him. He's 82 years old, 81 years old, and he said that is absolutely 100, 100, right, because it never, ever stops. So if you think when you get the next thing that, you've arrived.

Ben Townsend: 1:01:06

You've arrived, and don't, don't kid yourself, it's not uh. And if you find that that was true, then come back and let's talk, but I, you know, I don't think, I don't think I'm gonna hear it.

Scott Townsend: 1:01:18

Yeah you know, there's a 21 year old out there, 22 year old, listening to this. All I would ask is just just listen to it and just consider it not asking for a possibility.

Scott Townsend: 1:01:33

Yeah, not looking for some big wholesale changes here on on your, your behalf, but, uh, just consider it, consider what's being said. Uh, this might resonate five years from now. You know, a lot of these things don't resonate until much later, you know. But so we laid the groundwork, so. But there's other people out there who are in our position. They could say, heck, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about uh so, and pressure test it, pressure test some of this stuff yeah and uh and see if it works for you.

Ben Townsend: 1:02:06

If it doesn't, then switch course. You know, find out fine-tune stuff to make it work for you. Um, but your mileage may vary your mileage may vary.

Scott Townsend: 1:02:15

Knowledge may vary, all right. Well, I think that anything else, any last words of wisdom from sweet Ben.

Ben Townsend: 1:02:25

I don't think. So I'm going to have some lunch and I'm going to go work out and go check on my house and see how things are going. They're painting today and they are putting in the septic system today.

Scott Townsend: 1:02:37

What's the temperature down there?

Ben Townsend: 1:02:39

Well, when I was out there just a while ago, it was 28 degrees, so it's pretty cold. I know it's pretty cold up there in Oklahoma, but here in Central Texas pretty cold day It'll be mid-low to mid-40s today, here, eventually.

Scott Townsend: 1:02:55

That's a low of 16 degrees, so it's 17 degrees right now.

Ben Townsend: 1:02:59

right now, yeah, it's pretty cold yeah I like cold okay, shut up.

Scott Townsend: 1:03:04

Alexa likes to pipe up every once in a while. All right, well, we'll wrap it up with that and, uh, if you have any questions, comments, concerns, uh, you can always, uh, leave a comment down below and you can send an email to scott at scotttownsendinfo and questions or whatever. We'd love to see those, and maybe we brought up something that you don't quite understand that you'd like more elaboration on, I would be, we would be more than happy to tell you what we think about that. No shortage of that. So, alright, well, good luck on your house painting and we'll talk to you next time. So, for Ben Townsend, this is Scott Townsend. Have a great day, everything's going to be all right and we'll talk to you later.

Brittany McCullough: 1:04:02

The Scott Townsend Show is a Deeds O'Man production. For more episodes, visit the Scott Townsend Show YouTube channel, listen on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. The Scott Townsend Show oh, oh, oh.