#199 Leading with Disney Magic: Insights from Lee Cockerell on Leadership, Resilience, and Excellence

When Lee Cockrell, the mastermind behind the operational excellence at Walt Disney World, casually agreed to chat on our podcast, I knew it would be an episode packed with wisdom and heart. This week, we're honored to welcome Lee to share his story, from his Oklahoma upbringing and the tough love of his mother, to the peaks and valleys of a career that shaped the magic of Disney. His tales of personal growth, leadership, and how he weathered storms like 9/11 are more than just a lesson in resilience—they are a testament to the human spirit's capacity to triumph in the face of adversity.

Navigating the intricacies of Disney's famed customer service, Lee unveils a straightforward yet powerful formula for success: hire right, train right, treat right. It's a mantra that any business, big or small, can adopt to elevate their team's performance and cultivate a culture of respect and responsibility. Alongside these practical strategies, Lee doesn't shy away from the tender topic of mental health. He bravely discusses his own battles, lifting the veil on the often-hidden struggles many face, and underscores the power of proactive self-care and empathic leadership in forging a supportive community.

Capping off our enlightening session, Lee reflects on the indelible impact of mentorship and attitude in carving out a fulfilling career and life. He invites us into the behind-the-scenes of his popular podcast, "Creating Disney Magic," where he dishes out life lessons with the same candor and charm that have endeared him to listeners worldwide. Whether discussing the importance of staying fit in your 80s or the role of recognition in workplace culture, Lee's anecdotes serve as a compass for anyone seeking to lead with integrity, inclusivity, and a touch of Disney sparkle.

Chapters

• 0:00 Interview With Lee Cockrell
• 8:37 From Parking Lot to Disney VP
• 19:30 Lessons Learned From Challenging Times
• 30:44 Maintaining Excellence in Customer Service
• 41:10 Experience and Exposure in Leadership Transformation
• 50:39 Mental Health and Overcoming Adversity
• 1:00:03 Changing Culture Through Inclusivity and Recognition
• 1:09:49 The Importance of Attitude and Mentors
• 1:18:30 Creating Disney Magic Through Podcasting

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I'm not sure how I ran across my next guest initially. I've been following Lee for a really long time. I've always appreciated the opportunity I had to work at.

Speaker 1: 0:14

Disney have that experience. And then, a long time ago, I ran across Lee Cockrell's podcast Creating Disney Magic with Jody Mayberry, and it's just, it's 15 minutes, it's every week and it's wisdom from a man who's been in management, the hospitality industry, the entertainment business, for all his life. It wasn't always easy, and he's always candid and upfront about his successes and his challenges along the way, and so I listened to it. It's like going to school when you listen to his podcast about leadership management how to deal with people, how to work with people, how to get the most out of your employees how to take care of yourself.

Speaker 1: 1:04

So, anyway, I went ahead and looked him up on LinkedIn and he lists his phone number on LinkedIn, and so I just mustered up the courage to call the number. And, lo and behold, he answered. I told him who I was and what I wanted to do and he said sure, let's give me a call later on, send me an email, let me know what it's all about, let's do it. And it was as easy as that, probably one of the easiest bookings I've ever experienced with my show. So I hope you enjoy this as much as I enjoyed visiting with the former executive vice president of operations at Disney World, lee Cockrell.

Speaker 2: 1:50

Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought to you by Dietzelman Productions.

Speaker 1: 1:57

Hey, this is Scott Townsend. Welcome back to the Scott Townsend Show. And today I have with me a legend, a personal hero. This is a high watermark for the Scott Townsend Show Lee Cockrell, former Executive Vice President of Operations at Disney World, who's now retired and inspired, and he lot, of, a lot of good things to say. Uh, just, he's got a fantastic podcast, four books out there.

Speaker 2: 2:32

uh, welcome to the show, lee thank you, good to be with you. Glad you included me. Yeah, I don't talk to people from oklahoma very much anymore hopefully we can change that.

Speaker 1: 2:44

But, uh, well, welcome to the show. Uh, I don't even know where to start. This is. I'm kind of, uh, I'm just kind of freaking out a little bit because, lee, you know, for those of you listening uh or watching on youtube, uh, this interview. I've followed lee for a long time, long time on this podcast, and I've referred your podcast to so many people. You know, if someone's got a, if you're, if your episode had a certain message that I thought someone needed to hear, I would send it to them as a matter of fact, you probably don't know this, but, uh, I referred you to Whitney George and Jesse Anderson at Church on the Move in Tulsa.

Speaker 1: 3:29

They were looking for someone to speak at this event and they had. I think they were thinking of Gary Vaynerchuk and some others and I told them. I said you need to look at having Lee Cockrell come, because I knew were uh heavily influenced with disney methods and stuff, you know. Yeah, so uh, as it as it turns out, it worked out and I was there when you were speaking, uh at the at the event.

Speaker 1: 3:56

So I went to go meet you afterwards and all the books sold out and then they whisked you away and I was like, oh my gosh, so yeah I uh actually spoke to them a second time after that first time where you recommended me and uh, it was great.

Speaker 2: 4:14

Uh, I actually about this time of year. First time was for their conference where they have pastors come in from all over the world I guess. And and the second one was right before Easter. And then they actually after that they hired Marty Sklar, who I recommend.

Speaker 1: 4:32

Oh, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 2: 4:34

And so you put a lot of people back in Oklahoma.

Speaker 1: 4:38

That's cool.

Speaker 2: 4:39

That's cool. It was great.

Speaker 1: 4:42

Well, I've got all these questions and the reason why I wanted to have you on number one it was great. Betterment is to help people be better, perform better. I mean just, you know we talk about a lot of stuff about leadership and management and overcoming obstacles, and you know things like that. So who better to talk about stuff like that than you? So I don't know, I'm going to turn over to you. Quit talking. Yeah, yeah, I need to quit talking. So just kind of give us, the listeners, a little bit of a background of, uh, who you are and you know.

Speaker 2: 5:32

Just a a two-minute synopsis of your yeah I can happen background my oklahoma grew up in oklahoma. I was born up in bartlesville and then we live.

Speaker 1: 5:43

That's where I'm from.

Speaker 2: 5:44

Yeah, you are yeah, I'm in Bartlesville and then we lived.

Speaker 1: 5:46

That's where I'm from. Yeah, you are.

Speaker 2: 5:47

Yeah, I'm in Bartlesville right now. I ran the Fort Phillips Petroleum for 25 years and actually before that she was an elevator operator at Penny's. So she's the lady that drove the elevator back in the 30s and she was a great lady. But actually I was in Bartlesville the day eisenhower came for ks adams uh birthday oh really yeah, and he came right down the main street and I I took the bus from ardmore up there to see him well I'll be so that was my trip back bartlesville.

Speaker 2: 6:18

But then when I was born, uh, shortly, we lived up in copan on a farm, a dairy dairy farm. We were just as poor as could be. Of course kids don't know you're poor, you know every night and place to sleep, but it was a fairly dysfunctional family I had. I'm not sure how it affected me. My mother was married five times over the years. I always tell people she was busy and I've been adopted twice.

Speaker 2: 6:44

I got my name Cockrell when I was 16 by husband number four, who was a doctor, and therefore I got to go to college. And I hadn't even thought about college. You know a little town in Oklahoma, ardmore. Most kids didn't go actually and we'd never even talked about it. My parents were not paying attention to education much and so I went, went to Oklahoma State for two years. I was not a great student. Eventually I say I left, but I was getting close to them throwing me out, I think with my grade point average.

Speaker 2: 7:16

And I went in the Army in 1964 in Fort Polk, Louisiana, and you didn't have a choice back then were either in the army or in, uh, in school, um, I'm going on. And uh, actually I was in the reserves. I got out after six months, met a guy in there from the UK. He asked me you want to go to Washington with me? I had never been out of Oklahoma besides that trip down there to, uh, fort Polk. I didn't know anything. I never read the paper, I didn't watch the news. To me the world was Ardmore.

Speaker 2: 7:51

That was it. And so we drove to Washington and I got a job at the Washington Hilton as a waiter. The hotel was about to open in three weeks and I was one of the first ones there and luckily they hired me just because it was an opening and somebody took me by the hand, started teaching me how to do what I had to do there and I had a very successful career starting after that, and I think the reason I tell your listeners I don't have a college degree, but I figured out the best way to get ahead is to have a good attitude and to be reliable, and those are two things I really relied on in my whole career was attitude and reliability, so I tried to be the best little waiter they ever had, If they said come at five in the morning I just said no problem.

Speaker 2: 8:37

And every time I said no problem. I got promoted a few months later and then I got a job in the accounting department and I became the food and beverage controller for the operations there, eventually met my wife there. We got married. We moved to Chicago. Then I got promoted to Chicago, to the Hilton on South Michigan and then to the Waldorf Astoria in New York and then that must have been a big deal oh man, that was unbelievable.

Speaker 2: 9:02

You know, I come in from Oklahomalahoma. I had no the walls. I was like what is going on here? You know, when you move to washington, new york, after living in little town all your life, it's like pretty shocking yeah it's like whoa I.

Speaker 2: 9:15

There's a lot of things I don't know and uh. So, um, stayed with hilton eight years, ended up in Los Angeles, eventually left there, joined Marriott for 17 years, became the vice president of food and beverage planning operations for them worldwide. And the main reason is because I had just focused on food and beverage. I'd been a cook, I'd been a chef, I'd been a waiter, I'd been outside cateringing, I'd done all the jobs and you're a cook in the army, right yeah, and I learned from that experience that people and I think today too people want to know what you can do for them.

Speaker 2: 9:56

And I happen to have a lot of expertise, and going into the accounting department, learning the finance side really, uh kind of rounded me out for that and uh, so I did that and then eventually I uh kind of got sick of hilton and ended up at marriott and my career just kept growing in food and beverage and then I was a general manager at marriott and then I got recruited by disney in 1990 to go to france and open Paris, all the restaurants, which I did. We were there three years and came back to Orlando. They asked me to come back after three years and I was head of operations for all the hotels at Disney and then later on for the whole operations everywhere. And I'm still shocked that they gave me that job. That just proves nobody knows what they're doing and they don't know what you're doing. So uh, yeah, it is really true, when you go into a bigger job or something, you just kind of learn as you go yeah, but I'm telling you if you're reliable and you have a good

Speaker 2: 10:55

attitude. You, everybody helps you. You know it. Really I came up to the conclusion nobody knows what they're doing. So I was in good company, and so you know, and so it was just great. And I did work all over the world. You know, when I left Oklahoma I'd never been anywhere, except maybe I went to Dallas once to get a suit. My mother bought me a suit, and now today I've been to 45 countries, do work all over the world, and it changed me pretty dramatically and I've been married 55 years, I think congratulations I talked to my son once, or my daughter-in-law, daniel.

Speaker 2: 11:35

He's now in australia as president of a university there and they just moved there last week yeah I got three grandkids that are 28, 25 and 22 ones in france, one's in boston as a biomedical engineer and one's in manhattan in marketing and international business. So that's cool I scooted right along and I went from 18 to 80. I'll be 80 next week, so oh my goodness that's a dangerous age Is it? Apparently.

Speaker 2: 12:06

Kind of sounds like it, so I've had a good career. It was great. I fell into it. I had no idea I would do that, but hospitality is great and it's growing. I mean there's a huge demand for people to enter that business and my grandson in France is majoring in hotel and restaurant administration and he's.

Speaker 2: 12:33

But you know, know, with the cruise ships and travel, people are traveling all over the world and so it's an industry that is going to keep growing, and so I'm glad I did it. It was a lot of fun. It was crazy business, you you know, seven days a week because get you got customers that are happy and ones that are unhappy right go to Disney, which was like, know, everybody goes to Disney.

Speaker 2: 12:47

Eventually, apparently, and I learned there you really got to do it better than ever, because the expectations are so high when they come to Disney and they're spending their own money. It's not an expense account, they really you got, and that fantasy, that whole thing's got. You got got to work because mother comes with a four-year-old she doesn't see cinderella. They came after me and there's nothing like a mother that's not happy. It uh, we have to really be on our toes there to keep it all. You know, we say fantasy is real at disney and reality is fantastic. So it was a tough job. People say boy, it must have been magical working there. No, it was not magical, it was hard. We had 9-11 and hurricanes and recessions, just like everybody else, and we had to keep doing it Usually have a couple hundred thousand people in the park seat for every day.

Speaker 1: 13:47

So, uh, and humans are difficult sometimes I, uh, I was at oklahoma state in hotel and restaurant. I was not a hotel restaurant major, but I was taking a class in relation to hotel restaurant management. The only thing I remember a professor saying at oklahoma state was, and at the end of the class he said and disney's gonna be here next week to recruit for the walt disney world college program. So, boy, I went to the library and I got some books and read up, you know, and I was so. Anyway, nick, I don't know if you knew, uh, rick Neely, but anyway, he, uh, he hired me and I still got the, I still got the acceptance letter, I framed it and I go oh, look at that what year was that?

Speaker 1: 14:34

88?

Speaker 2: 14:35

wow, well, my son Daniel was there in 88, I think he was. He did the program yeah, I was.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Uh, they put me in the parking lot of magic kingdom driving a tram well, by the way, that's where he started too.

Speaker 2: 14:49

You guys might have worked together. He started in parking yeah and he he said the first day. The manager told him, daniel, we do everything for a reason here if there's a, if there's a safety cone there, do not move it. It's there for a reason.

Speaker 1: 15:05

Everything is planned yeah, and that's the truth, I can attest to that. In a parking lot they would have big binder notebooks with, uh, you know, procedure, policies and procedures and things that you had to follow. And if I said, uh, chipmunk down many pluto goofyy, donald Daisy, dopey, sleepy, happy, grumpy, bashful, sneezy, I said it a million times. And but you know, you're right, the guest experience it starts way before they get there. But even in the parking lot, in a parking lot as big as the Magic Kingdoms, it's easy to lose, lose your car, it's easy to your battery doesn't start when you get back out, uh, and so they get on the tram and you hold up for everybody and then you put on your. It's acting, you know, it's uh, welcome, you know, but I can't remember all of it. But it is, you make the loop and you drop. Everybody hope they have a great day and they're all excited.

Speaker 1: 16:06

And, and at one time I'll tell you a quick story and quit talking there was a, there was a, a family that came and got on the tram. They had a handicapped, a little girl. She had braces on her legs and so we held up extra long for them and they got on the tram. You know, and I could tell that she had a huge smile on her face. She was so excited about being there. And so we took off, went to the ticket and transportation center and dropped them off, and off we went. Well, I worked two shifts that day, and so I was there in the evening, and so I was there in the evening.

Speaker 1: 16:44

Now, in the evening, this is when everybody's hot, tired, broke. Kids are cranky, parents are cranky, you know. And so we pull up to the ticket and transportation center and people are getting on the tram and I, just out of the corner of my eye, I saw the same girl that we had picked up. Uh, that morning I never, I never, recognized people from, you know, but in this case I did.

Speaker 1: 17:09

And she still had. She was so happy and just this smile on her face and she had a lot of, looked like, she had a lot of reasons to be sad and depressed and all, but I'm telling you, she still looked like she was having the time of her life, and what that told me was everybody, from me to all the cast members, didn't break the spell. They, everybody performed, you know. So that this little girl, who's probably had a hard go at it. You know, with whatever she was dealing with, they did a really great job and even to the end of, you know, even when she came back to me, she was still on cloud nine. You know, with all the things that she experienced and I'll never forget that.

Speaker 2: 17:58

The lesson there and you know it is. In any business, everybody matters. You know as you go through your experience or you go to the bathroom and it you know as you go through your experience. Or you go to the bathroom and it's not clean. Or you go, they're out of stock or they don't open on time. I mean, there's a million ways to run the experience and so many times we don't pay attention to some of the positions because they're not that important. Let me tell you, they're all important. If they weren't important, you ought to not use them. You know, get rid of them, save your money.

Speaker 2: 18:27

Yeah, payroll, but exactly that was a lesson for me working at disney too. Everybody matters, and uh, yeah, yeah, that's good, that's great what, uh?

Speaker 1: 18:38

what initially drew you to work for walt disney world, and what was your first role there?

Speaker 2: 18:43

yeah, I um you, I was at Marriott and I'd gotten passed over for the last big job, the one I really wanted, and so I went off to be a general manager of a hotel and I got approached by Disney because a fellow who worked for me at Marriott ended up. I ended up working for him at Disney. He had left to go on to Disney and he was going to be the executive vice president for opening Disneyland Paris Resorts. And he called me because I had food and beverage experience, which he knew and he needed me. He said, and so he hired me and off we went and my wife was open-minded about it, you know she said, yeah, let's go do it. And you know that's half the battle, because when you're in a project like that, uh, you're not home much and yeah, we had a lot of divorces over there.

Speaker 2: 19:33

You know, families that just uh, the pressure and stress for the years and so yeah, well, it just uh happened and uh it was uh my lucky day, I think, because I tell anybody, anybody who can work in an international country, is it's going to. You're going to learn a lot and grow a lot, and it's going to. You're going to have to be a little more humble after that. Every time somebody spoke French to me, I about had a heart attack. So after about six months, you get over it, though, and you figure out how to communicate yeah so, uh it was, I was approached.

Speaker 2: 20:09

And I think again there's the lesson they approached me because I knew something they needed. Yeah, so I tell everybody, become an expert in something yeah I don't care what it is, become the best, the go-to, whatever, and people will find a job for you. And we know that today, with technology, if you're an expert in some part of technology, there's 100 companies that want you Right. They don't care where you went, where you live, who you are. They need the expertise.

Speaker 1: 20:42

Can you share a particular time at your uh tenure at disney?

Speaker 2: 20:47

that was particularly challenging yeah, you know, actually part of the tough time I had is when I first got there, because I was kind of, even though I came from disneyland paris, I was the outsider. You know they still call me the marriott guy. You know, know, and you know everybody's not happy for you when you show up, especially people have been there 20 and 30 years. People think they should have got the job widely get it. I never worked in a theme park in my life and so that was difficult. I really had to work on that and be available and listen to people and find out what was going on and educate myself, because I think there were probably a few people that wanted me to fail and so that was hard and then did you focus on them, all right.

Speaker 1: 21:33

Did you focus on the people that wanted you to fail? I mean, how do you, how do you uh navigate that situation? Do you focus on them or do you focus on the people that are there to help you?

Speaker 2: 21:46

and I think what you do is, first of all, you don't always know who they are that's true you know.

Speaker 2: 21:53

I mean, it's obvious, the higher you go, the more uh, more people. Probably you're in competition for a promotion and somebody gets it, somebody doesn't get it. And no, I just tried to be open to everybody. So the first time while I was there every night for several weeks, I had a big session where I invited everybody to come anybody hourly, management leaders and they could ask me any question they wanted. They could fax it in so they didn't have to read it and I answered those questions about who I was and how I work and what's important to me.

Speaker 2: 22:34

And slowly but surely you build up trust. It's being available and being known and talking about what you believe in and letting everybody know. I think that the clarity of expectations, how we're going to work together here I'm interested in your opinion, I'm always available, that kind of thing and then time, then time proves whether you're going to be that person that you said you were going to be. And then I had a great team. I really had a great team over the years. At one point I had the perfect team. It was unbelievable.

Speaker 2: 23:07

For about two years I had the, not one. Every person on my team was amazing. I had it was like being retired. Then I mean they were so good. And then the hard times, of course, with 9-11. And of course you know hurricanes were not easy and sessions, recessions, they're really hard because you end up having costs and sometimes let people off and and uh, yeah, that kind of stuff. I'm sure the pandemic for them was even worse than 9-11 because it lasted so long and they ended up shutting down the parks. I mean I I thought 9-11 was tough, but I think the pandemic was really hard on everybody there right talk about 9-11.

Speaker 1: 23:50

Um, just if you can, you know, the morning of that day I remember where I was. Um, it's funny. Uh, that morning, in the office, one of the office ladies said I just heard on the radio that a small plane office one of the office ladies said I just heard on the radio that a small plane had hit one of the world trade centers. And that day I had a meeting downtown in a building that was designed by the same guy that designed the world trade centers in Tulsa. And so I'm up on the 11th floor and I look out the window and I thought no, if a plane was coming at, if a plane was coming at me, what would I do? And I thought I would just run to the center of the building. You know, easy as that. Well, when I got home and saw the news and saw all that was going on, there would be no running to the center of the building. There is no place to go, you know.

Speaker 2: 24:42

And so what was that morning like when you guys first started getting yeah, I was sitting in my office about 8 15 my wife called me. She was with a friend and she said a plane just hit the world trade center and I, you know, I thought, oh well, uh, you know, I you don't think the worst, you think, okay, this could happen, I guess, yeah. And um, I walked over to my boss, we turned on the television and then, not one long second, plane hit. And uh, after that, uh, we're going like what is going on here? Nobody knew. And then pentagon, and then we opened our command center and, uh, we can open it in about half an hour. And uh, we closed all the parks immediately and sent everybody back to their hotels.

Speaker 2: 25:27

By 1130, we had everybody out of the parks, in their hotels. And because we just didn't know what was going on here, and then we had to kind of take care of the guests, they were in their hotels. We sent the characters over because a lot of our guests are from New York, new Jersey. I mean, they were really having a hard time. Firemen that were here on vacation wanted to get back. Um, it was. And then, uh, nobody could get on on a plane, so we had these people in the hotels and a lot of them's credit cards that expired a lot I mean. So so we had no charges. I mean, we probably spent a million dollars that day on just letting people eat and do what they had to do, and it was a few days before flights were available and all the rental cars were gone immediately. Nobody could get a car because people did. And so, yeah, we managed that and went through the day and when we knew it was kind of calmed down the next day, we actually opened.

Speaker 2: 26:31

But we have a whole procedure for an emergency like that. We practice two or three times a year. You get a call in the middle of the night and you have to activate. They put you through a four or five hour simulation of everybody shows up and they keep. You keep getting scenarios sent to you and here's happening and you have to make decisions.

Speaker 2: 26:49

So we were we. We knew how to do it. We did it perfectly. I mean, sheriff, is there the fire department's in our command center? Uh, people, somebody work working with the radio station about when you tell the cast members what's going on on the schedule, and so, uh, we pulled it off and we lost 35 of our business that day. Cancellations for the future, of course, and uh. So we had a lot of cost we had to take out. We were, we had we had to take 400 million dollars cost out and we had about two or three weeks to do it. So we were in a room with the whole team for day and night figuring out what to take out, what hotels to close, what not to do anymore um. I mean it.

Speaker 2: 27:36

It was uh, and I I tell you that's when you you're glad you got a good team, because there were people a lot smarter than me about what we could do, because they knew the business deeper than I did. I just sat back and gave them you know, tell me what we should do here. You know the business, you've been there. You know what we can do, what we can't do, and that's when you decide not to be the boss.

Speaker 2: 27:56

You let other people that know what they're talking about. Step in and and yeah, somebody said you can have authority, but that doesn't mean you know anything right and uh, so it was. It was real hard, uh, by christmas, so we had pretty good business. Uh, nobody flew yeah they were scared, so the parking lots were over packed and people were parking on the grass parking lots never been that full since and it gradually came back.

Speaker 2: 28:24

And uh, but uh, who knew? I mean, I never even imagined having an experience like that. And uh, but then the pandemic. I don't, oh gosh, I really feel bad for them. 28 000 cast members got laid off, closed the parks. Uh, you do a little damage to your culture during that time. When people wow, they put me out of a job. So, uh, when people say I want to be a leader, I say why are you crazy? When you say I want to be a parent or leader, is it? No, it's very hard.

Speaker 3: 28:59

You have the wrong idea, you obviously have the wrong idea.

Speaker 1: 29:02

You obviously had the wrong idea of what this is all about.

Speaker 2: 29:06

Yeah, it wasn't magical. So we went through a lot of, and there's a recession every three or four years, so you have to deal with that again. What are we going to do? Wall Street wants you to get the costs under control. The company does, and it was the same at Marriott. You know it happens. I was at Marriott when we had Legionnaire's disease in 1976. A bunch of people Legionnaires, died at the Bellevue Straffer Hotel from the air conditioning bacteria. Same thing that was supposed to be a record year. In 1976 in Philadelphia, where the Liberty Bell is, we had our own recession just in Philadelphia, because nobody would come. They were scared to death. They didn't know Nobody would.

Speaker 2: 29:56

So you never know what's around the corner. So I always tell people make sure you're getting ready for a crisis, because it's just a matter of time. Don't wait till it happens and try to figure out what to do.

Speaker 2: 30:07

It's like you know have a fire extinguisher in your house before the house burns down. And so many times we wait and then we don't have the right plan or the. You know you talk to your kids about how to get out of the house. You have your little fire drills. A lot of this stuff is preparation and anticipating what can happen and preparing for it. I see, you know so many people buy a treadmill after they have bypass surgery. They ought to buy it before you know. And so life is unpredictable and it happens when you least expect it. You gotta be ready.

Speaker 1: 30:44

Disney is known for having such a high standard of excellence in customer service and operations overall. How did you maintain those high standards, or even improve those standards, throughout your work at disney how do you do that with 40 000 cast?

Speaker 2: 31:04

making sure that everybody's on the same page doing the, doing the deal yeah, I mean, I think it's a pretty simple formula that I think anybody listening today can implement in your company. Uh, say our there's three things we do better and any company can do it. We hire better. You know I say we hire the right people, we take our time. We're looking for somebody with a good attitude, it's going to be reliable and can do this. Dealing with disney guests all day is not easy no, you know a lot of demands and so we hire right.

Speaker 2: 31:36

And I'd say the second part of hiring right is dealing with people who don't belong there right when you make a mistake. You got to terminate people. You got to get them out of the business. If you were clear with them and you explained to them and you hired them and they can't do the job you. That's the hardest part of being a manager. You got to deal with it. Second thing we do is train better. I mean, we have clarity of expectations and I'm sure you know they're. Everything's got a reason. They tell you what the reason is and your boss knows about it and the managers are out and about in the business making sure that we're. You know, bill bill marriott told me the only way you get excellence is have education, slash training and enforcement.

Speaker 2: 32:17

You do it and you enforce it. The biggest problem in most companies they don't enforce their own rules. Obviously things go favoritism, uh, you know, and that's so we have. Uh, hire right, train them right. And then I would say the third thing we do pretty well is treat people right. And you know, we have people working there from a hundred countries and they're from all over the world and there's no anything to do with racism or bigotry, is not, you know? Don't even think about it. I said we may have racists at Disney, but they're very quiet. They better stay quiet. And so we hire them right, train them right and treat them right.

Speaker 2: 32:58

And I think if every company just think about their own company in those three ways and are we really hiring the right people or not, I guarantee you everybody today listening has got somebody in their company that shouldn't be there. They're not doing anything about it and the training's not. They're not clear about expectations. That's why people so you didn't tell me or I didn't know, I even tell people today make a list of the 10 things, the 20 things, whatever it is that you want every person to know, and you put it on a piece of paper and every time you hire somebody, you go through that and go through it, and go through it and so that we don't have these lapses of uh, not knowing. And then, if you've hired the right leaders, treat people right, you know, just be respectful you know, today across the world.

Speaker 2: 33:44

It's people, everybody. The way we treat each other is sad. It's just like what Some poor guy and these jobs at Disney that people are doing. They're living on the edge a lot of them. They're not making a lot of money For them to come in and to perform like that every day wake up in the morning and come in and deal with Disney customers and guests all day long.

Speaker 1: 34:09

And it's hot and humid, sell an ice cream cone at a 100-degree temperature for $8.

Speaker 2: 34:15

You know. So it's clarity of expectations and having the right team. It's just like everything you know. I said when I was in high school we had the best cheerleaders, but we lost most of our games. So cheerleading is not the answer. I mean it's part of that. But we played other teams, like lawton. They didn't have good cheerleaders, but they beat the hell out of us. So it's about performance, right?

Speaker 2: 34:41

you know, inspiration is good right but it's whoever has the best players who know the plays and feel like they are somebody and and that's how you win. And we see that everywhere and it's not much different. You know, you think about it. You know you go out to business. You go all day to different companies and businesses and I do too and you run into these people that have no clue what they're doing. They got an attitude. They don't call you back when they say they will. It's our own fault if we're not doing a good job. You know, I tell people today about 99 of the problems in your life are your fault.

Speaker 2: 35:23

You know literally yeah, if somebody's not working there and not doing their job and you let it go. It's your fault. I mean it's not my fault that. You know if you didn't train them, it's your fault. If you don fault, I mean it's not my fault that, uh, you know, if you didn't train them, it's your fault. If you don't, I mean it's think about it. You know we like to blame everybody. I tell somebody the other day you know, if I have a problem, I don't, it's not donald trump's fault or biden's fault, it's probably my fault.

Speaker 2: 35:45

So yeah, I get over that blaming and I think, too, people got to sit back and think what am I not happy about, what do I, and then do something about it. You know we sit around. If you are unhappy about something and you can figure out what it is, there is a solution. You might need a new wife, you might need to put your kids up for adoption, you might need to go to the doctor, I don't know. We sit and have the same problem for 10 years and it's usually there was a solution. Or maybe take your wife and go see a psychologist or psychiatrist, or maybe she gets rid of you, you know, and then everybody's happy. So, uh, but you can be happy, but you got to make hard decisions right and the main thing most people don't want to do is make hard decisions.

Speaker 2: 36:30

That's why we don't coach people. They're not doing their job. That's why we don't fire people, that's why we don't want to have hard conversations. And when you don't do it, nothing happens. It gets worse and then you get a culture which the guests are not getting what they think they paid for because we advertise it's going to be magical right sometimes it's tragical, not magical, and you pay a lot of money for it yeah I think leaders, leaders, uh.

Speaker 1: 36:59

To me in the uh, when you're talking about, uh, enforcing what you want to see and helping employees get better, I see the role of the leader almost like a doctor, where the doctor prescribes. You know, if you went to the doctor and the doctor said here, so you've told me, we've talked, and so here's what I want you to do, here's my prescription. You know, here's these pills, here's this exercises. Come back in three months and let's take your lab work again and see where you are. Well, that's great. But for some reason, when we get to work and the manager says, ok, so tell me what's going on. Ok, so here's the problems and here's the prescription for how to fix it, and come back in two weeks and we'll talk about it.

Speaker 2: 37:48

For some reason we don't like that, but we like the doctor, but we don't like management telling us prescribing uh a remedy for a behavior that they want. We don't like feedback, especially men.

Speaker 2: 38:02

I don't like my wife tell me what to do yeah but I've gotten over it yeah it's just a natural, because you know, somehow we think we're great, we're doing fine and and uh, women are much better at uh learning what they need. You know, it's a man and men we are, we think we're in charge and uh, we know everything and it's a macho thing and it. You got to get over that because really today you got to be able to work with all kinds of people, because they're coming from every. I mean you got to focus I say only focus on one thing performance.

Speaker 2: 38:38

Don't worry about where they're from, what color they are, what background, what religion right do the job, do they do the job and do they do what they were trained to do? And if they're not doing what you train them to do, you step in and you say, okay, okay, what's the problem here?

Speaker 2: 38:52

Let me talk to you about this? Didn't we talk about this? It's like being a mother. How many times did your mother tell you to clean your room? It never ends when you're managing people. It's over and over and over. You got to be telling them every day. Did your mother ever say? How many times do I have to tell you?

Speaker 2: 39:15

yeah well, that was a reason, because she's been telling you the same thing and that's how, eventually, if you stay on it, you know somebody tells your mother, I have. You know. They say you have such a great son. She says, you know, you don't know what I went through. You know the guy was because we're all. We want to do our thing we don't want and most things mothers want us to do we don't like you know yeah when she tells you to shake hands with people when they come in the house say please be polite, put your napkin in your lap when you're 12, 13, 14.

Speaker 2: 39:52

You know what is she talking about right but she, you know. Somebody said your mother's always disciplining you for the person she wants you to be when you're 25 years old. Not who you are today, but who she wants you to be and I think that's a good position, and when you talk to employees about their performances, and it's the person you want them to be, so they have success and they get promoted. Coaching and discipline is hard. That's why most people don't do it. It's very hard. You've got to get used to doing it.

Speaker 1: 40:31

What advice would you give to someone who wants to work in a leadership role at a company like walt, disney world or any, anywhere really, I mean, what advice would you give someone who who wants to be that? Earlier you said, whoever says once they want to be a leader has to be crazy. But let's say, someone did say you know, I want to work, I want to go up, you know, up the ladder, up the ranks, you know, and what, what's the? Uh, I don't think there's any secret, but what's but?

Speaker 2: 40:54

I think there's three things you got to think about if you want to be successful and really education is one, and it may be formal you may finish, get your degree, you may not but to really have that thing about reading, leading, staying on top, learning things. But the big ones are experience, getting experience in the kind of work you want to do. And that's why I tell you, you know, when I was growing up I'm at 16, you had a job. Everybody worked. I worked in a drugstore, I worked in a lumberyard, I worked after school. But experience and exposure being exposed to different things, different people, exposure being exposed to different things, different people I think experience and exposure probably develops you quicker than anything else. When you you know me going to Washington DC, that developed me pretty quick because you're live, it's happening, you're in the show and so many people don't get varied experiences and you can think about in your own life the things you learned through experience, probably a little better than what you learned at Oklahoma State.

Speaker 1: 42:00

Right.

Speaker 2: 42:02

You probably can't even remember what you learned at Oklahoma State. You learned about how you deal with people through experience and job exposure and tough times and hard conversations, and so I think that's I tell everybody. I tell graduates today as soon as you graduate, get out of your village, go to a big city, meet people from all over the world, learn different things. After five years, if you don't like it, you can go back and do it, but get that exposure. You can't get it any other way. You got to go do it and uh and uh. Your mother may not like the job you took in new york, but you know that's the way it goes. Well, you got to look after your life and I don't think I think a lot of kids are getting a degree but they're not getting that experience and exposure. Uh, yeah, you know it's uh. There's nothing like experience burns it into your brain. Man, let me tell you, just think about some experiences you had.

Speaker 2: 42:59

You can't learn that in school no and it might have been a bad night.

Speaker 1: 43:04

You didn't sleep well after that experience, and you have, but you'll never forget it there's a one story you told in your podcast about your early days as a uh, as a banquet manager or something with Hilton or Marriott, but you were talking about how somebody busted a beer bottle over your head. That was in New York, new York.

Speaker 2: 43:30

That was a horrible story. I was in the control, I was a controller there, and I got a call from the manager saying a guest had complained that they thought the waiter was cheating and not presenting the check properly. And all I went down and I walked up to the waiter it's in the middle of the Peacock Alley dining room and I said to the waiter could I see your checks please? The guest checks and he was holding a tray with beer bottle and or maybe it's I don't even know if it was full or empty and he started shaking and, uh, I said no, ink started blah, blah, blah. I said no, let me see the checks. And that's when he took the bottle and smashed it over my head and I got six, eight stitches here, six in the back of my head and uh and uh turned out I was right.

Speaker 2: 44:19

But uh, but the union was so strong in new york they didn't fire him. They thought they were gonna. They wanted me fired and you know that's how this things turn out. So he stayed, I stayed and about six months later I tell p I shouldn't say this I think it was the ywca call for a reference on him for a job and I said oh he's great and he left. But uh yeah, I don't want people to think it's dangerous in the business, but no, the people people.

Speaker 2: 44:50

you know people get emotional, especially if you catch them in a stealing or and yeah, and so that was a good lesson for me. My wife said Lee, do you think people hit you because the way you speak to them?

Speaker 1: 45:06

So they used to call you the bulldog or pit bull or what Like Doberman or what was Doberman? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:15

I got hit again after that, at marriott too. So I got eight stitches in the back of my head coaching a guy who told him he had a bad attitude, and he got out of the chair and hit me with a clipboard oh my god.

Speaker 1: 45:21

So I haven't been hit since 1973, so I'm doing pretty good how did you change or what adjustments did you see yourself making to go from Doberman to a more enlightened leadership approach?

Speaker 2: 45:39

Well, I can tell you this and I think a lot of people can relate to this I was very insecure as a young manager. I didn't have a college degree. I grew up in this kind of dysfunctional family. I wanted to be successful. You know you go and work. You don't want people to know what you don't know. And so when I became a manager I was pretty autocratic and you know I kind of abused my authority. I tell people what to do and I'm very organized. So when I say I need that at 4 o'clock, man, you better have it ready man.

Speaker 2: 46:09

And I got a reputation for Lee gets it done, but he leaves bodies. I mean I did not play around because I wanted to be. I had a fear of failure and I didn't. I was insecure and I went through a tough time once with an employee who told me he was. He went to the hospital to get observed because I was coming to visit him in El Paso and he got so upset because my reputation and after that I really went through a lot. I started going to seminars, reading more, trying to understand what made me that way, and I was able to change. And my problem was I didn't trust anybody. I had this lack of trust, and so if I'm in the manager, I can make you do it, you know.

Speaker 2: 46:50

And nobody challenged me because they knew I would kick their butt, and so I got away with it for a few years and I was getting good results too, and my boss let it go. He didn't say anything either, but eventually I worked my way out of it and I started to trust people more and that I was the problem. They weren't the problem, and so it's a tough girl. I mean, we all have issues. I tell Priscilla my wife will tell me something about somebody. I said they got issues. I'm sure your wife will tell you you got it.

Speaker 1: 47:24

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:25

And we, we act those out and they, they create triggers of you know, somebody not getting something done on time that I'm responsible for turning in. I probably gave them holy hell and instead of being a little more empathy and a little more discipline and a little more training and teaching, and I tell people today don't be the boss, be a teacher. If you want to teach, you want some better results. Teach people and if they didn't?

Speaker 2: 47:48

give you what you wanted, then it's probably your fault that you didn't teach them properly and start to understand who. Who's at fault here, you or me and uh, and it's like in my marriage I was always trying to change my wife turned out I was the problem. So, uh, when I quit criticizing her, she got better immediately so you're, you're evolved.

Speaker 1: 48:09

You evolved, uh, from someone who was a high performer but uh, insecure and uh, not very confident. Uh, but were there practices or methods, or what was the? What were the switches that you might have incorporated to increase the insecurity to being secure and from not confident to being almost overconfident? I think what?

Speaker 2: 48:43

happened was as I started to be more successful in my performance, my confidence got better about my ability and also that I started going to seminars on leadership and management and reading more about it. Reading about leaders who didn't have any authority, but when you think about Mark Luther King and Gandhi and they made these big change, people followed them and I had to learn to be more open, to accept people, to be available to, to listen to people, to not overreact. I started to learn these things. When you go to these courses you know we all go to courses, but do you implement them?

Speaker 2: 49:21

yeah, and I really paid attention to. Okay, I need to do that better, and sometimes it took me a long time to be able to do that, uh, and to make sure I was careful before I addressed somebody's performance problem. But do it in the right way, say it the right way. Don't make them so insecure that they can't sleep tonight. And so it was a. It was a process. It took me a long time Probably took me seven, eight, nine years to work my way out of that.

Speaker 2: 49:50

I got lup bit all the time, but and I still have the potential to not being very nice, but I don't know don't we all? Because you know, when I start thinking that people got enough problems, they don't need me to make more fun, I mean, yeah, you know, everybody's got problems you don't know about, and it's everybody, everybody worries problem, that's true so I try to be more supportive and, uh, and I'd say today, when I was at marriott helton, people probably would not have come to my funeral now.

Speaker 2: 50:23

They probably will. So, uh, I think back then they'd wish I'd die, but we've all worked with people like that. Oh, yeah, yeah. And when you think back about them you can figure out that was more than that was not. That was more than being the boss. I had some deep, deep mental health issues.

Speaker 1: 50:44

Speaking of mental health, I was also on your podcast, which I highly recommend anybody listening watching to check out Lee's podcast with Jodi Mayberry creating Disney magic. I was going through Texas and you started telling the story about taking care of your wife and and your battle with slowly, I guess anxiety and depression started creeping in and I remember being very awed by your vulnerability and and being willing to talk about stuff like that because you know, as high powered executives, leaders, you don't hear people talking like that. They, you know you don't want to, they don't want you to see their foibles and the other side, but you were just laying it out there and I thought it was amazing. Can you tell everybody? Just give them a little synopsis.

Speaker 2: 51:55

that was 2016, my wife almost died. She was in the hospital for 67 days, off and on for two years. The bill, the invoice, was seven hundred thousand dollars. I I still had insurance from disney, so I was in good shape, but and slowly but surely you know how it happens is it just wasn't getting better. It's one thing after another, in and out, a fever, and this next back in again, and so slowly you get to where you can't sleep. First, you know anxiety causes you not to sleep, and then it's full-blown anxiety. That's all you think about. And then it turned into depression and I was really in bad shape for six, seven months. Priscilla made me go to see a psychiatrist and he helped me a lot, helped me understand, probably, why that was happening from my childhood and how things connect over the years. And the reason I talked about it is because a lot of people already know you got a problem you know.

Speaker 2: 52:56

So I just, I always just hey, I just lay it out there because, uh, ever and more people were talking about it by then, because of all the military generals were starting to talk about it and everybody was encouraging people to talk about it. And by then I thought it was probably a good idea to talk about it and to talk about what I did to overcome it. And I had to do a lot. I took caffeine out of my diet, sugar, we quit watching any violent TV, we just put music on. I saw an acupuncturist, I saw a psychologist, I saw a psychiatrist. I exercised every day to try to work that out, walk it, go outside, get some sun. I mean, there were a million things I was doing.

Speaker 2: 53:39

Because if you don't fight it, it gets worse. You know it won't go away by itself and I'm going through a little anxiety right now. My wife's got some health problems. I told her she's trying to kill me and this is more physical, it's back issues and things and I'm having to take it over, and I'm very aware of being careful about getting back in that situation.

Speaker 2: 54:01

So I go out every day and do work in a place which is distracting, and we've got a plan now how to have somebody come in if I need to go away for a couple days or things to do work, and so we better understand it. But it's a it's boy, it's rough and I guarantee you half the people on this listening right now are dealing with somebody that's got anxiety and depression parents, older people, grandparents, your, your dad, your husband worrying about his job, and what you've got to really pay attention to are kids.

Speaker 2: 54:37

Yeah, a lot of them, I mean they said. I talked to one university told me 40% of the freshmen needed mental health counseling in the freshman year. Wow 40% and the schools don't have enough counselors, so the kids are waiting three and four and five months to get to see anybody, which is dangerous. First of all and this is a big problem, I think uh, mental health issues right now, and anxiety and depression across america for sure, and the world are at an all-time high.

Speaker 1: 55:08

The suicide rates in men. It's like one man dies from suicide every minute. So in the time that you and I have been talking now for let's see here two, 57, 57 people have committed suicide.

Speaker 2: 55:26

It's real. And I tell people pay attention to the people around you, especially your children. Uh, don't listen to that. When you ask them how's everything, they say fine, that's probably not right right we get into it. You got to observe their performance. Uh uh, they're. Are they quiet? Uh uh, really get into it. And you know, tell them, tell them, hug them and tell them you love them, and what can you do?

Speaker 2: 55:52

And it's OK to talk about it and because especially girls, high school girls, middle school girls, a lot of pressure and all this social media is creating a big problem that I think is going to get worse, and so we talk about it a lot with our family, with our grandchildren, and to be aware of it that it's okay. We've all been there and me talking about it helped them all to come to realize because they always thought gosh Papik had depression. I can't believe it. He's perfect. Yeah, all grandparents are perfect, until they're not, and I have Venmo, that's why they love me. But anyway, it's something. If you're going to teach, you got to talk about the things that matter and this matters and try to keep an eye on your friends, neighbors, relatives, because if you pay attention you can spot it. Because when people get quiet and they don't want to meet anymore and they always got an excuse and they're withdrawing, the worst thing you can do is withdraw and sit at home with yourself this is deadly.

Speaker 2: 57:00

I mean, I didn't even want to have a cup of coffee with people. I mean I didn't care about anything. And then I started taking these pills. Pills, and those are deadly. You may feel great and you take one every six hours and then you kind of get addicted to them. Then you have to work yourself off of them. Yeah, but those pills are deadly. I mean, let me tell you, man, they, they make you feel so good you can't believe it. You can't wait for six hours to go by and get another xanax yeah, but you get on those things.

Speaker 2: 57:31

Now I understand clearly how people get on drugs. I mean, it was hard for me to get off. I bought a little drug scale and I cut them down every day with an emery board and made them smaller, smaller, smaller, but it's not, it's rough. And then you start drinking a little wine with a Xanax. Oh my God, you wake up the next day. You have the worst feeling ever and I'm sure everybody listening to this today will be aware of pay attention and go get help. Men don't go get help. Women do, and I'm telling you, man, go do it before it gets worse. They can help you. About 80% of people can be cured with medication now, and so do it.

Speaker 1: 58:10

The podcast is. I've kind of taking taken uh uh interest in movember, uh, men's health. In the month of movember everybody grows their mustache and, you know, tries to raise money for testicular cancer, prostate cancer and mental health, you know, and so I think they raised like 60. What do you say? I had him on my podcast uh, last week or two ago, max skinner, with movember. But yeah, I, I have a feeling that this podcast is going to have more subjects about men and mental health and how to kind of help get the word bang the drum a little bit and how help help guys uh deal with what you're talking about yeah, it's irresponsible not to deal with it because you're affecting your children, your family yourself.

Speaker 2: 58:59

Uh, you know, if you end up committing suicide you leave your wife with. I mean, it's there's so many things that uh, uh, and society's getting easier to talk about this, but it's got a long way to go yeah and, frankly, oklahoma, everybody you know we don't talk about those things we're all we're good, no problem, put me in coach, I'm fine, yeah, and uh, just uh, everybody.

Speaker 2: 59:27

More people speak up about it, the better we'll all be, and women too. My wife was depressed back 30 years ago after a move we made. She said didn't you and Daniel notice I was laying on the couch, depressed for two weeks we said no, we weren't man, you know. Yeah, that's a guy response you know, yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:49

So you got to look for it and I'm sure if you think about it you can figure out some people you know that probably are going through, and older parents or after bypass surgery, or I mean there's so many ways can push you into that place changing gears.

Speaker 1: 1:00:02

Just a little bit here. Uh, what do you consider to be your greatest accomplishment during your time at walt disney world?

Speaker 2: 1:00:08

I think, over time, changing the culture to a more inclusive, treating people better. When I got there, it was 90% white males running the place and when I left there were 50% women. Our last president was gay. The president before that was a woman. We changed the whole, I mean, and over the years. I mean it takes time, but we started on purpose, looking for minorities, looking for women, making a decision that the way you get promoted here is through performance, not through being around. For 10 years basis for my book creating magic, and we implemented that and it was more clarity around what our expectations are. What a leader does doesn't do how you treat people, how you, and so you change the culture by uh, education and uh clarity of expectation and um, that's, that's what I spent.

Speaker 2: 1:01:05

I don't know anything about the park business people. People ask me what did you do at Disney? I said nothing. I just hired great people in engineering, food, retail and I let them do their job and I tried to help them with staffing, training and how we treat people. That was my role because I had the authority to do that and we had to get rid of some people. About 50 executives left the company during that period over time. They'd been here 20 years, 30 years, 40. They couldn't handle this change of. We got to listen to the employees instead of them listen to us.

Speaker 2: 1:01:38

Yeah, that was hard and but times were changing. Yeah no, the next generation. They don't care what you want. They, they want to know what's in it for them.

Speaker 3: 1:01:46

Yeah, yeah, it's real that's real, and if you don't start teaching people what's in it, for them.

Speaker 2: 1:01:48

Yeah, yeah, it's real. That's real. And if you don't start teaching people what's in it for them and treating where you won't have any employees, these young people don't mess around you talked about, uh, the free fuel, uh r, uh, can you tell?

Speaker 1: 1:02:03

can you uh explain kind of what r is and why you would want to?

Speaker 2: 1:02:08

well, r is a, r, e and I kind of coined that as appreciation, recognition and encouragement, a-r-e. That's the fuel that drives all of us. You know, if I show appreciation to you and encouragement and recognition and treat you right, you're probably going to stay and work with me. If I treat you like crap, you're probably going to leave. It's so basic, but we all want it, we all need it and uh, uh, you light people's life up when you, you know, every day, I said, at least call your mother and tell her how much you love her.

Speaker 2: 1:02:42

You know she was still living, you don't realize the impact that has of saying to somebody hey, you're doing a great job, I hope you stay with us. You're the kind of person we need here. Boom, that's it. You just change the whole trajectory of their career and we can do it. It costs nothing, it's free and we miss opportunities every day, and I've gone a long time. Before I was the Doberman, now I'm the Cocker Spaniel and I make people feel good all day long.

Speaker 3: 1:03:10

I was the Doberman, now I'm the Cocker Spaniel and I make people feel good all day long Because it costs nothing, and they like it.

Speaker 2: 1:03:15

I like it. It makes me feel better too by the way. When you say, lee, I love listening to your podcast. I learned a lot from it. I did this. Thank you for calling me back. That gives me the energy too. We all want to be appreciated. That gives me the energy to uh, you know, we all want to be appreciated.

Speaker 1: 1:03:30

You know, that was something I'm really impressed with. I I was. I really wanted to get in touch with you. I was talking to Valerie Cockrell. She was on my show, you know, not too long ago, and I said, do you think Lee would be on the show? And she goes oh yeah, you should. I was like, oh, I can't, I can't approach, can't approach him, you know he's he's way up there and I'm just down here. So anyway, one day I got on your linkedin profile and you listed your phone number and the contact info and I was like, are you kidding? He actually puts his phone number out there. So I called your number and you answered and I was so shocked.

Speaker 2: 1:04:11

That's what you're supposed to do. If you've got a phone, you're supposed to answer it. You know why people say why do you put your number on everything? It's in my books too, my number and I said because I booked more business, you call me and we book it. You don't call somebody else, cause I didn't answer. Yeah. Yeah, and it does blow a lot of people away and right away I'm connected and they want to book me and I said, oh, I mean, it sets that initial, no hassle. Yeah, it was no hassle.

Speaker 2: 1:04:39

I think being available is one of the biggest things you can do in business. And be available for your employees, be available for your customers. Don't have your secretary saying he's not available, he's not here. People want to see you. People want to. If they call you, they got a reason and I get a lot. You know, uh, I get some people just call me and I answer the phone. They say I say what can I do for you? And they said nothing. We just wanted to see if you really answer your phone. In my book, uh, the customer rules my phone number's in there. Because be available is one of the chapters about how to be better, give better service yeah, that was great it's just a philosophy and it's no big deal to me.

Speaker 2: 1:05:16

I'm retired, so I can take a call but even at disney. I was available and I think that makes a big difference, because people talk about it behind your back because, hey, he's, he'll see you, you can go see it. So if a customer walks into your call me before they call the newspaper or get info.

Speaker 1: 1:05:32

Yeah, give me a chance to deal with your problem if a customer walks into your store and says I want to talk to the store manager, do you push them off on your assistant store manager, or yeah?

Speaker 2: 1:05:44

I mean. I think they don't mean the store manager often, unless they say that, but they want to meet somebody that's got some authority to take care of the problem they got yeah and I might say, yeah, I got sister manager, we'll get him. If that's not right, then we can get the gm yeah, but yeah, I think so many times you people need to. If you're in business, you got got to take complaints, that's, you know, that's part of the job because, everything's not fine.

Speaker 2: 1:06:15

You know, we have public supermarkets here and if the tomato is bruised and I take it back, even if it's not bruised and I don't like it, if it's a perfect tomato, they say, okay, no problem, you know we're not going to have a discussion over the tomato, they take it back. Yeah, I'll go like, okay, our job is not to argue with customers. Because we want their credit card, I want them to be happy, right? So, uh, yeah, don't argue with customers.

Speaker 1: 1:06:42

figure out a solution one of the things that you said, um, in your podcast that I found interesting and I'm I'm still kind of a little puzzled by it. Uh, you said, uh, no, here we go mentors choose the mentee, the mentee doesn't choose the mentor. Actually, I always thought it was the other way around.

Speaker 2: 1:07:06

Yeah, I think we choose who we want to mentor.

Speaker 2: 1:07:09

You know we can. I tell people. Uh, people will call me and say, can you be my mentor? And I said, no, not really a mentor. Somebody needs to be seeing you, working there with you. They're in meetings with you and they will tell you the truth. And that's in my whole career.

Speaker 2: 1:07:24

I had bosses who my boss a couple of times was my mentor and told me the truth and gave me some things I didn't want to hear about me and uh, and probably your wife's one of your best mentors.

Speaker 2: 1:07:36

And uh, no, I tell people I can't mentor you, but I can give you advice. But I can't observe you in a meeting and say, hey, you shouldn't talk to people like that or that wasn't the right way to speak to that person. You know, being a mentor is you got to get to the dirty stuff, like I'll just try to try to be nice, I got to observe you not doing something and say, hey, listen, let me show you. The way you spoke to her in that meeting was inappropriate and that's not going to be good for your career and I suggest you go back and apologize to her and tell her and then, in the future, pay more respect to people and, like you and uh, mentors are far and few between. We get a lot of advice, but very few people tell us the truth. Let me tell you yeah, that's true about it.

Speaker 2: 1:08:21

our wives do, uh. And if you yeah, that's true, our wives do. And if you had a boss that did? You're really lucky because they care about you. They have to care about you to tell you the truth, you know, that's great. That's how you have to think about it. Like you, you tell your kids the truth because you love them and you care about them.

Speaker 2: 1:08:42

Even though you know. You know sometimes you don't want to have to discipline your child. But it's the same old story. You're getting them ready for a bigger life and it's a responsibility. You don't have a choice.

Speaker 1: 1:08:56

You said oh. Or the question I want to ask is does a leader motivate or inspire?

Speaker 2: 1:09:04

Yeah, I don't think they motivate. I would say inspire if I had to pick one, because you know I tell people we hire people for attitude and reliability. But I can't motivate you if you're not motivated. You know, and we know these people. They were motivated when they were eight years old to be better than everybody else. They were motivated to be on the football team. They were motivated to make straight A's. But I can create that environment and culture that they work in, that's supportive, and they get training, they get development, they get feedback.

Speaker 2: 1:09:37

Whether that motivates them or not, you know, depends on the person and I don't think you can be in the job of motivating everybody. You've got to try to pick the right people who are already motivated to do well and then teach them, you know. But attitude and reliability are hard to teach, you know. Especially attitude. You hire a really good person who's really good at you know. You see it in sports teams. Attitude gets people thrown off the team and uh, or doing the wrong things. And I used to say, you know, uh, winning, like disney is like when oklahoma's not winning football games, there's a problem you know, yeah, big problem and sometimes it's the player got in trouble or you know all the stuff that happens.

Speaker 1: 1:10:26

Right, my son wanted me to ask a question. I hope you don't mind. I told him I was going to be visiting with you and he said. I said do you have any questions you would want me to ask Lee? And he said yeah, he, he wanted to know are there any influential people, books or, uh, mentors, who guided you in your years?

Speaker 2: 1:10:51

yeah, I would say the mentors in my life. Number one was my grandmother, who showed me how to be a nicer person, which it took me a long time to learn that, but I understood it. Um, and then I had two bosses over the years. One was at hilton, who took a personal interest in me and told me the facts of life. You know, and I remember the day I went to work for him in new york. He said lee, here's how you're working at the waldorf now you work.

Speaker 2: 1:11:14

Don't wear a brown suit after five o'clock, you wear a tuxedo if it's in here. You don't smoke in public. If you you're drinking in a reception, you drink it out of a glass that's why they were invented not out of a bottle. And then he took me every Monday to a different restaurant in New York, taught me the business, showed me he really cared about me. And then I had one at Marriott who did so too, and he kind of had an upbringing like I did and he kind of connected with me, because I was really very defensive and I always didn't like feedback. And he told me lee, I think the best thing he ever told me, leave. The whole world does not revolve around lee cockrell. We're talking about a business problem here. Just take care of your customers, don't be in here, come telling me it's not your fault.

Speaker 2: 1:11:59

And I thought the whole world, yeah. Because I was thinking oh my god, everybody knows I'm. You know it's not me, because we get defensive and we want to blame somebody else. And he, he straightened me out and every time I did it he said lee, lee. And eventually I got over it. But uh, he, luckily. I tell I'm lucky, because maybe I wouldn't have had the success, because people don't like to work with defensive people. That's never their fault and they always blame somebody else. We know those people. All of us do. We don't want to work with them, we don't want them around, we don't want to hire them. They make our lives stressful. I was lucky to have those two.

Speaker 1: 1:12:40

Who was it that told you the reason why you have flies is because you like?

Speaker 2: 1:12:45

flies? Yeah, mr Marriott did. He came to my hotel in Philadelphia. We were walking the business and we went out on the back dock where the trash dumpster is there were flies all over the place and went back in and there were flies in the building. We didn't have the wind curtains and the fans and all Got up. And there was one were flies in the building. We didn't have the wind curtains and the fans and all Got up. And there was one few flies in the restaurant. And that's when he told me if you have flies, you like flies because there's a lot you can do about it. I'll never forget that for the rest of my life. And it's kind of like if you have rude children, you must like that. And that's where I came. You know, know this issue of it's probably your fault that you know they're there. Why are they there? You don't have flies in your house. Yeah, it's in. What do you do?

Speaker 2: 1:13:30

you start closing doors to kill it, but in work, or if you drop a napkin on the floor or spoon or fork at home, you pick it up. And businesses, you see people just uh, yeah, you're setting the, uh, you're the role model, you're setting the example. That was the best thing he ever told me. I got it, mr merit.

Speaker 1: 1:13:49

Thanks, sir I can do, I can take care of that and again he was just right, straightforward. He didn't care whether I liked it or not should you take care of your business or your people?

Speaker 2: 1:14:01

I would say people, because basically the businesses are complex and half the stuff people are doing you don't have a clue what they're doing and you don't know how they do it. You don't know how well they do it. They do it, I think, at a higher level because of the way they're treated and I think that's the key in life. You know, if I treat you well, you'll do well. If I treat you respectfully and include you and involve you and train you and develop you and make sure you're having a go and I touch base with you and make sure you know you're important and that you matter. That's mainly the job of a leader. Especially today.

Speaker 2: 1:14:39

It's so complicated, all the technology you can't know 10% of what people are doing. Right, and I always said your boss has no idea what you're doing, but make sure he's not screwing you up and depressing you and bothering you. And have that relationship where I know, they know I care and I'm available when they have a problem. You come to me. I'm not going to be coming to you every day criticizing you. Come to me and then the culture gets good and we feel fun and we're happy. I wake up in the morning. I want to go to work, not have to go. So culture is a very sensitive thing At home, at work. We all know. You've been in them, you've seen them in your life, you know right now where they are, or friends that have bad culture at home, or bad marriage, or the kids are not here and trouble, and people ask me how you doing lee, and I said, well, priscilla hasn't left me and nobody's on rehab, so oh, we're doing pretty good.

Speaker 2: 1:15:37

That's the best thing we can do, right? Yeah?

Speaker 1: 1:15:38

yeah in your book customer rules. Um, uh, you said one of your chapters was don't make promises, make guarantees. That sounds pretty scary. Uh, what did you mean by that?

Speaker 2: 1:15:52

I saw that from the stores I go to here and start thinking about it. Yeah, we always, you know that old saying promises, promises and people don't follow up, don't do it. But guarantee is kind of a legal thing. You know, I guarantee you and that kind of sends you in a message that you're going to be responsible to make sure this happens. I guarantee you, if you and so this store guarantees, that any problem you have, they'll go in your favor. And mr Marriott told me that too. He said, lee, anytime you're in doubt, go in favor of the guest. Anytime you're in doubt, go in favor of your employees.

Speaker 2: 1:16:28

If you're not sure, I had a customer recently who I spoke to and I had a pretty big fee and they were not happy with the whole thing and thought I should not charge them as much. And I said, no, I don't give discounts, you should not charge him as much. And I said no, I don't give discounts, you know I don't. And I thought about it for about a week and then I said, okay, you're not happy. And I thought about it. I wasn't feeling well that way, maybe he's right and we went too long and so I sent him a check. You know, I went in his favor and I got a real and it was fine. I feel better about it because I think he he was a super guy. He was, I didn't, he wasn't trying to screw me, and so there's times when, you know, I a lot of us want to be defensive with a guest that's not happy. Oh no, no, I don't want to give a refund.

Speaker 2: 1:17:12

Uh, most people are not trying to screw you right most and you got to be careful you don't put policies in place for those few that do. It'll change your approach and your attitude and how you treat your customers and your employees are watching that how you deal with it if you can stick around just a little bit.

Speaker 1: 1:17:32

I kind of wanted to touch on your podcast. Yeah, uh, you started your podcast. I don't know when was that?

Speaker 2: 1:17:37

2014 years ago we got approaching 500 episodes now what uh, we never missed it. We never missed a tuesday in 10 years, every tuesday, and it's only 15 minutes, 15 minutes that's uh. That just blows my mind people are busy, you know, and uh yeah, so we, we get, we, we get we. Just we went over 4 million downloads recently and it's it's rated in the top half percent of all podcasts.

Speaker 1: 1:18:10

What made you decide to get into podcasting? What was it about it that you said you know what? This is something I think.

Speaker 2: 1:18:16

I didn't. This guy called me Jody Mayberry, who was a park ranger in Washingtonhington state and that state pain. He said would you be on my podcast? He had a podcast called parks and recreation. He was talking about state parks. Yeah, he called. We recorded it and he called me back in three months said have you ever thought about having your own podcast? I said, jody, I didn't even know what a podcast was. When you called me, I said I'll do it, but I'm not doing any work. All I'll do is talk you edit it, you promote it. You do. I don't want to hear about any work because I don't know how to do half this stuff. Anyway.

Speaker 2: 1:18:52

We started and it's been 10 years. That's why we do things like depression and how to raise your kids and how to hire and how to fire and how to make your wife happy. It's fun, but it's 15 minutes and we're even trying to get it down to 10 or 12 because people go fast and so it's been fun. I think people learn from it. I get a lot of great notes from people saying boy, it helped me a lot. I never thought about that and no question, it's popular because it's a lot of Disney. If it was Lee Cockrell, nobody would listen to it, but the guy who you know. I get some credit because I was at Disney.

Speaker 1: 1:19:37

How do you choose your topics and your guests? Is that what you do, or Jody?

Speaker 2: 1:19:41

does J jody? I never know what he's going to bring up when we get listener questions. People send in questions they want us to answer and we only probably had uh in five years or in 10 years. We probably had 10 guests overall. We don't do guests really very often, yeah and um. So he just has some question for me uh, laney, what do you think we had to get? Customer ask this, this and I talk about it, and I think that's the best way because I don't want it to be overproduced and me to work real hard to get the exact right answer. Sometimes I have to say I have no idea. We'll find out and we'll talk about it on the next show, because you've got to just let it go like we're doing today. Just let it go like we're doing today.

Speaker 2: 1:20:20

Just let it go. That's when the best answers come out and the best ideas, and I think a lot of these things are too overproduced. I see, you know they got all the right background and all that.

Speaker 1: 1:20:34

Music.

Speaker 2: 1:20:36

Say the perfect thing on the music. No, ours is pretty raw just out there. It's the way it is. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:20:43

And, looking back on your show, is there a show I'd be interested to know, if you've got a show that sticks out in your mind that, uh, you were thought was, I don't know, remarkable or memorable, or they're all great, but is there one that you think that was a really good one?

Speaker 2: 1:21:04

well, there is no doubt that you've already mentioned. The one on depression was we had the most feedback on that from all over the world, because that's when I realized this is a big issue. I mean we heard from people everywhere uh about I wish my boss would deal with this, I wish my boss would talk about this, and I think the way we handled 9-11 was a big one. People learned you got to be ready for something. Make sure you're ready now, get just. You don't know what's going to happen, but something could happen and prepare for it and anticipate it and get all of what you need and the training in place. So when it happens, everybody knows what to do and so those kinds of things. But yeah, I don't know. I mean we have the listeners.

Speaker 2: 1:21:52

I was surprised the other day we just learned that it was in the top half percent, and I think it's because it's practical, like, okay, we all got the same problems, that's what I know, everybody's got the same problems. You know, that's what I know. Everybody's got the same problems. Yeah, they're worried and they need to do better. And they want to do better and we all think we're dealing with something.

Speaker 2: 1:22:12

We're the only ones dealing with it yeah, the ceo of every company's got the same problems. You and I got you know and uh, there's no new problems. All the problems in the world are people. That's every problem you have in your life's, a person yeah, that's. So I say I didn't major in hotel and restaurant administration. I majored in people, because that's where the solutions are I, uh, I ask every guest and I totally.

Speaker 1: 1:22:43

I got so nervous at the beginning I forgot to ask you. The question I ask everybody is what did you have for breakfast this morning?

Speaker 2: 1:22:49

actually, I had the same thing every morning. I have a bowl of grapes, blueberries, walnuts, a banana sliced up with, uh, three scoops of strawberry yogurt on it, non-sugar, and that's what I have every day.

Speaker 1: 1:23:11

Sounds healthy.

Speaker 2: 1:23:12

And then I might go to my coffee place and have something I shouldn't have. Pretty much I try to. I really focus on taking care of myself because when you're 80, it's kind of important. I said I'm in the O ozone, the obituary zone, and not I don't you know. I never worry about dying. I worried about being, you know, sick for 20, the last 20 years of my life, or not feeling well or not being able to walk or being in a walker or wheelchair. So I really paid. I have a trainer I work out with twice a week on strength, agility and balance and those things matter.

Speaker 2: 1:23:48

Yeah, I mean strength training. I can tell you that alone will turn your life around. I'm in better shape now and I weigh five pounds less than I did when I was 20. It's because I pay attention to it, because I know I quit drinking alcohol because I wasn't sleeping well and I finally came. I said okay, I had to quit seven times because I like it and it's hard. And I took sugar out of my diet and it's hard.

Speaker 1: 1:24:15

Yeah, you talk about that. I've heard you talk before about doing the hard thing. Just focus on doing the hard thing. It's. It's a lot of times it's not that hard, but you just think it's hard. You know, uh, but some things truly are hard, they are.

Speaker 2: 1:24:31

We just, uh, don't want to be uncomfortable and when you don't deal with them, they get harder. Yeah, you really screw it up because you let it go. Yeah, and your body is one of them. If you let it go, it'll go, you're like an employee.

Speaker 1: 1:24:48

If you don't uh handle an employee, or someone's got a behavioral issue and uh you don't deal with it, then that it, it, it grows and and it also kind of spreads to other employees maybe, and then you've got a real problem on your hands because you didn't uh choose. Now it's even harder because not you got to deal with this person and maybe some others now and it ruins your reputation, because people wonder why you're not dealing with it.

Speaker 2: 1:25:13

Yeah, everybody understands. Why does he let that happen? Why doesn't he talks about it, but he didn't do anything about it then? So it hurts you too, your credibility. And uh, you know people will do what you let them do yeah, you have kids. You know that I said trust no teenager.

Speaker 1: 1:25:31

They lie my son would always look at me and go. How did you know that I?

Speaker 2: 1:25:38

was like dad's, just right things you know we know, and uh, you gotta cut it off before it gets worse or they get into serious trouble. And uh, it's not always fun, but it's uh better than what could happen if you don't deal with it uh, any last words, anything you want to say.

Speaker 2: 1:25:57

You know, as we wrap this up, what uh yeah, I mean, I always tell people I think there's two things that uh hold people back. One, people underestimate what they can achieve because it's hard, and they just you know, my mother wasn't nice to me and and the other thing, they underestimate their influence every day, how much better they can make people's lives, uh, just by being a nice person you know, but complaining about everything and you know, understand it's probably your fault anyway. To quit blaming biden and trump.

Speaker 1: 1:26:32

Yeah, I told there's no presidents ever had any impact at all on my life well uh, you, uh, I just want to tell the folks out there, as far as books go, you've got four creating disney magic, the customer rules, time management magic, career magic, and then your podcast, creating disney magic, which you can listen to on wherever you get your podcasts. Your website, lee cockrellcom that's a good place. A lot of good information there, good resources, uh, so, yeah, I mean, if you're interested, you want lee to come to your. I'm speaking for you now, but I guess that's okay if you, if you have a, uh, you need a speaker. Uh, a keynote. Uh, I've heard him personally. That was. I still remember the tie that you wore. It was a kids on the Give kids the world.

Speaker 2: 1:27:25

I still wear it Really Because people like it. And it makes people think I'm nice because it has children on it. I fool them. But yeah, I, and I have a learning site, Cockrell Academy. Oh, that's right. And courses. We have a newsletter that's subscription rate and has good training on it. There's a bunch of stuff. They can go to LeeCockrellcom Anything you want. That's where we put it. It's great to be with you. My connection to Oklahoma man.

Speaker 1: 1:27:59

For Lee Cockrell. This is Scott Townsend. Thanks for watching and listening to the Scott Townsend show. Have a great day. Everything's going to be all right and we'll talk to you later.

Speaker 2: 1:28:11

The Scott Townsend show is a Dietz-O-Man production. For more episodes, visit the Scott Townsend show YouTube channel, listen on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.