TSTS #157 Job Search Best Practices w/ Corey Walker

In this episode, I visit with Corey Walker of Ncite Partners about best practices when it comes to interviewing.  Corey tells us why it's important to know your audience before the interview, how long a resume should be, about the workplace complaining epidemic and how it affects us and our productivity.  The source material is from the Harvard Business Review's article, The Next Time You Want to Complain at Work, Do This Instead by Peter Bregman.  You can read it here https://hbr.org/2018/05/the-next-time-you-want-to-complain-at-work-do-this-instead

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Chapters

• 3:09 How to prepare
• 7:24 How to use mistakes to your advantage.
• 12:05 The value of asking good questions
• 15:33 Do people wear suits to interviews anymore?
• 17:04 Thank you notes
• 19:41 When should you follow up?
• 23:50 Don't monopolize people's time
• 24:50 Contact info

Transcript

ritany McCullough  
Welcome to The Scott Townsend Show brought to you by Deetsoman Productions

Scott Townsend  
This is Scott Townsend. Welcome back to The Scott Townsend Show. And today I have with me Managing Partner of Ncite Partners, Corey Walker Corey, how's it going?

Corey Walker  
Very good. How are you today Scott?

Scott Townsend  
Doing great. Corey is the I don't know, managing partner OKC advocate. He's a recruiting ninja. Maybe you can explain that a little bit later. He's from OU. I'm from OSU. So we'll just let that one go.

Corey Walker  
We can still be friends.

Scott Townsend  
We can still be friends. We Yeah, I want you to win every football game except one.

Corey Walker  
There you go.  Exactly.  

Scott Townsend  
And Cory was introduced to me referred to me by the Associate Professor at OU's Price College of Business. Ron Bolin a friend of mine. He's been on another. He was on another podcast that I have. And all around great guy. Love Ron. And I really appreciate him. referring you to the to the show. So absolutely. Welcome. 

Corey Walker  
Thank you. 

Scott Townsend  
So, you know, the purpose of this podcast, a lot of people know is just to help people. This started out during the COVID, during the outbreak, and it was kind of like a lifeline to help people, you know, pass along motivation, inspiration. Just, you know, people were losing jobs, right and left, I mean, it was a national wipe out. And so if there was something that I could say or do to help people have a better life, learn a life hack, or, you know, just, they can walk away from listening to this on the treadmill or on their bicycle, or they're watching and walk away going well, I learned a little something there that I might be able to apply. So I'm glad you're here because of your expertise in recruiting. Absolutely. And so, you know, let's talk about what I'd like to talk about today is putting your best foot forward in the job seeking process. Sure, I'm sure you have some thoughts on that? Sure. I'm sure you've seen a lot. That was great. And some not so great, you know, and really as bad as good, for sure. I'm gonna turn it over to you. I'm gonna quit talking. So what? What do we need to do to prepare ourselves for the job search? Looking for that dream job.

Corey Walker  
Good question. Yeah, just to reiterate. So I'm Corey Walker with Ncite Partners we're recruiting firm based in Oklahoma City do primarily small business recruiting. So companies that are kind of two to 300 or less, we do have an arm of business that does also engineering IT as well as management consulting, but my thought process on on kind of the job searches, it never ends.  I think, the best time to be looking for a job is obviously when you're not desperate to find a job. But I think we're not always necessarily in that boat, per se. So, you know, I'll kind of speak from maybe just a holistic approach versus you know, being unemployed versus employed. But I think first and foremost, I think the most important thing is to always have your resume ready. Always have your LinkedIn profile updated. I hear a lot of times from candidates, oh, I don't have a resume updated. Oh, my LinkedIn is not updated. But my question is, as you never know, when that person is going to reach out to you, I forgot the statistic, but probably over 50% of candidates are being placed by LinkedIn now. So I think that's the number one resource, you know, that you really need to be on, just to be found, you know, if you will, and, and LinkedIn actually has some back end things you can use, which is kind of nice to actually say that you're open to work, which is a new feature that came out during COVID, which will actually kind of put you to the top of the list which dealt with a lot of recruiters which I you know, highly, highly recommend, because you're going to kind of come to that top of that search list. But I think having your your LinkedIn profile your resume up to date. So when you do get that call, you meet that person, it's all about networking, it's all about who you know, at the end of the day, it's a it's a human relationship, you know, the resume can kick open the door, but you're gonna get the job. But another thing I recommend to kind of pre employment search is, you know, everybody always has that dream company, they follow, you know, I've got my top 10 in Bartlesville are my top 10 in Oklahoma City I want to work with, follow them on social media. I know that sounds, you know, to rudimentary, excuse me, but, you know, on LinkedIn, if you follow them on LinkedIn, you're gonna get updates, new positions, you're gonna know what's going on with that company. And a lot of times a lot of those positions and things you can even make connections with hiring managers, you know, really build a network, kind of the old fashioned way from that standpoint, but that also gives you a lot of material. If you ever do get an interview with that company to really speak of You know, during that search as well, you know, from that standpoint, so that's kind of my recommendation is kind of pre search. And I think once you get that interview, obviously, kind of your I say the resume goes out the window a little bit, you know, a lot of people kind of hang their hat on their resume, they'll fib on their resume, not be able to back it up in an interview. So I think really, the biggest due diligence is really kind of prior to the interview. So a lot of people, you know, we'll go through a website, look at kind of the high points. But I really recommend, you know, not only researching the company, and the person you're interviewing with, but really go layer deeper. So a great example is look at their core values, look at their mission statement, look at their other open positions, you know, what else are they hiring, for? What directions are they headed, and be able to talk about core values in the interview, be able to talk about I mean, anybody can look on LinkedIn for 30 seconds and say, Oh, Joe Schmo went to OSU. And he's been here at this company for five years. And you know, they're their office buildings in downtown Oklahoma City. Well, that doesn't tell me anything about how you fit the job. So I think a lot of people need to turn that narrative around and kind of really realize that interviewing isn't natural for anyone. First of all, I mean, no one, like wakes up and one day is like, I want to be a professional interviewer. No one, no one else interview today. Yeah. And no one else, you know, wants to be a professional interviewee as well. I mean, I think people don't realize that you're nervous walking into an interview, generally, the hiring manager is too. And I think if you're able to provide that value proposition of really putting your seat and putting you're kind of sitting in the hiring manager seat and kind of understanding what value can they bring, can you bring to the table and sitting in that seat? And even how you can succeed at the position? I mean, we have a lot of candidates that you know, they always ask that prototypical Hey, what's your biggest weakness? The typical answer we get is I'm too hard on myself. I'm, you know, I procrastinate.

Scott Townsend  
I'm such an overachiever. I'm just Yeah, really good.

Corey Walker  
What value does that add is that that doesn't tell the employer anything. So, you know, same thing with strengths. You know, I'm punctual. I'm hardworking. Those aren't strings, those are attributes. So I really challenge people even you know, the weakness question and think of a mistake you've made and think of something, you know, that's really tangible, to help you connect with the interviewer because I think a lot of times a lot of people in an interview just sound very scripted. You know, very, you know, robotic, you know, if you

Scott Townsend  
will give me an example of a mistake that you could use in this what you're talking about, yeah, that I can your mistakes, but I mean, just just make something up or personal to

Corey Walker  
actual yeah, I've actually had candidates go into a job and interview and the employer will say, Hey, why'd you what made you apply to XYZ company? And they'll say, Oh, I just saw the job posting, and I was posting to 100 other jobs. It's like, that's the worst answer, you know, you can provide or a weakness question, you know, providing something and then not showing how you're growing from that, you know, a lot of people say, Oh, I'm hard on myself. Okay. Does that mean you're gonna sit in the corner and scream at yourself? Or does that mean that you're developing, they're becoming more self aware and listening to feedback and things like that? You know, that kind of makes sense?

Scott Townsend  
Right? Right. Yeah, absolutely. Someone's going through their strengths finder. Strengths, qualify, if someone said, What are your What are your strengths? And if I said, for one ideation, sure, you know, I could say ideation. But then what you're saying is I need to follow up with. And so what that does, is that helps me come up with ideas, I'm really great at coming up with ideas, pulling two disparate things together to make a new, you know, creative suggestion,

Corey Walker  
you really have to make the theoretical more, you know, more realistic. I mean, I think some of those, you know, you can send interview, well, my srength, according to StrengthsFinder, my strengths are, that's not an in depth answer, you know, you can maybe lead with that. But that has led to me having direct success in that or, and another thing we see is, too is people get asked to interview questions and kind of speak very theoretically, like, oh, I can do that, you know, oh, I studied that in school. Whereas I think in this job market, while it's very candidate driven, I think that's going to change slowly. And it's even currently changing. I think you really need to speak from actual experience, you know, really be able to provide examples. And the biggest kind of thing that we see, especially candidates that maybe have been around 10-15 years is remembering what they did eight years ago, you know, having a sample so I always recommend take the job description and take your resume, and kind of go bullet point by bullet point and almost make like a laundry list of the things that you've done and the examples you can use by no means carry that into the interview, because then you're going to sound scripted, but I can barely remember what I had for lunch yesterday. How can people remember, you know what they did on a project eight years ago, but it's amazing. We kind of get that ball rolling because the resume innately is not a great representation of your background because you want it to be a page, two pages, three pages at most, I can't put everything I've ever done on a resume. So that goes out the window, when you start the interview, you shouldn't have to look at your resume, you should know your background. And I think finding that laundry list, you know, kind of helps just get the memory going. And especially if it's something that's more applicable to the job, a certain software, certain Excel skill, or, you know, something like that. And, in addition, I think some people also you know, may be lacking areas of experience in a certain area and always recommend, you know, act like you're in the job before you go in. For instance, if it's an IT analyst role, they want heavy SQL experience, you don't have a heavy SQL experience, maybe the weekend before go and take a tutorial, you know, you'd be amazed the amount of movement you would have in the interview process to show that you have that drive and you know, things like that as well. Because I've done that myself, I interviewed for recruiting oil and gas job way back in the day and knew very little about oil and gas. But you know, I did all weekend and use the applicable experience, I had to you know, gain that position. 

Scott Townsend  
It's funny you bring up know, the know, their core values and mission statement, I went into one interview one time and I trotted out the mission statement, you know, that I'd memorized and the general manager said wow, I didn't even know we had a mission statement.

Corey Walker  
So know your audience as well. If you're interviewing for a field tech role, your field, your field tech manager probably doesn't know, you know, what the mission statement is, but HR would care. That's a good, right. But I think I think it's like, you know, anything, I mean, have the bullet in the gun, just because you don't have to fire it doesn't mean, you shouldn't be prepared for it. You know, just a lot of people rely on like salary.com or glassdoor.com, for interview questions and stuff like that. But we have to remember, it's very specific to the hiring manager, not to the company, I mean, every hiring manager most or something different. Just because when hiring manager wants someone that's bubbly, he cares less about IT skills doesn't mean the next one won't, you know, or whatever the case may be.

Scott Townsend  
What else about during the interview? Would you recommend?

Corey Walker  
Yeah, so the actual interview itself? I think, you know, as I mentioned, you know, it's not really natural for anyone, you know, I think really be yourself. I think the number one feedback I get sometimes is they were too canned, they weren't themselves. You know, I think there's some dangerous in that is you might get turned away from some positions, but I wouldn't you rather get turned away for some positions that, you know, aren't really truly based on who you are and what you're looking for. And, and really kind of aligning those things. Because at the end of the day, you'll be looking for a job again in six months to a year, you know, from that standpoint, but I think during the interview, I think also one thing is ask good questions. I have so many candidates that go into an interview, and they have no questions like, What do you mean, you don't have any questions? You're here for an interview. So always challenge everyone I know, sometimes you go through repetitive interviews where you've asked the same question, but you know, great example is, you know, what, what makes you stay here at x and y company, and everybody's answer may be a little bit different. And you'd be surprised what information you may gather about, hey, the manager might be happy, but everybody else is, you know, that might tell you something, a little bit from that perspective. But I think always be prepared, I always say bring a couple copies of your resume with you. You never know when their printer breaks, or if they're running from a meeting and didn't have chance. Always bring you know, something to write with, with your questions already prepared. You know, some people always asked to bring, you know, should I bring work examples and things like that, I think that's something very appropriate to ask prior to the interview, you know, normally your recruiter or HR will say, especially if it's a creative role, they'll want to see that but it's some some in their industries, like financial modeling, you may want to show that but always ask that don't necessarily bring it because you show up with a huge binder. And you kind of overwhelm your manager from that standpoint. So right.

Scott Townsend  
Now, it seems also that I don't get this or hear this a lot. My and it's a mindset that I don't have not had. And that is if you're really confident, then it seems like the interview, the interview is for you. And so, you know, we throw all the weight and all the power to the hiring manager, when really maybe it should be all about you and you come in and and this is I'm looking for a job, I want to see if this is the right fit. I should be able to just have all kinds of questions, you know, and, and be able to explain why I'm good at what I do and how I can help you. But I think too often we're scared of the hiring manager and he has she has all the power when you're the one that's looking and you might want to get up and just say you know what, this you wouldn't do this during the interview but you walk away going you know, that's just not for me. You know, but instead of being desperate looking for anything, yeah. Does that make sense?

Corey Walker  
Yeah, it's interesting you say that because I would say prior to the pandemic, that was very much the case, I call it kind of a hiring manager dominated interview. But we're seeing, you know, when it's a candidate driven market, it very much becomes a two way conversation. And I would say interviews have become less formal over time. And I think they're becoming less formal. I mean, the days of wearing a suit and tie to an interview, I think are almost dead. You know,

Scott Townsend  
that was going to be one of my questions. Yeah. Do people wear suits anymore during...

Corey Walker  
I mean if you go to if you're going to work for a bank, sure, but I've had candidates show up in a suit and tie to a manufacturing facility, and they've asked them to take the tie off. Yeah, so I always recommend a step above, you know, if their business casual wear business professional, but I think people care a lot more about the soft skill set and what's behind the interview, because it is really common that the best interviewer gets the job, but the best interviewer isn't the best person for the position. And I think we're seeing kind of an evolution of that. And I think as it's a candidate driven market, people are realizing, you know, just what human welfare and human well being is such an important part of, you know, the societal shifts, we've seen the past three years that it really has infiltrated interviews, I have some clients that don't even bring the resume into the interview, they just have more of a conversation, hey, this is who we are, tell me about you. And I think I'm seeing that more. And I think that's going to be more beneficial to the candidate, because client, and hiring managers were very stoic, you know, very, like, hey, we have 20 minutes, 30 minutes, we're going to talk about me, we're not going to talk about you. Because I'm seeing kind of the opposite. I'm kind of seeing an absolutely that the candidates currently do have a lot more power. But that's cyclical, you know, I mean, 2007 2008, it was very client driven. And you know, then in early 2000, or late 2010, it was very client driven. So it's just amazing how it kind of ups and goes, but I think some of the things I've outlined, I think apply no matter what the market is, but absolutely, I'm seeing a big shift and kind of the concentration of the interview.

Scott Townsend  
So after the interview, is there anything else you want to mention about during the interview?

Corey Walker  
I don't think so, yeah, I don't think so. 

Scott Townsend  
So after, okay, the interview is over, I go to the car. What's the next, you know, what do I do now?

Corey Walker  
Yeah, I highly recommend always sending a thank you email. You know, I would say probably only about 20 to 30% of professionals actually still do that,

Scott Townsend  
which does amazing, because everybody says send a thank you note, but really no one, most people,

Corey Walker  
I would say there's definitely an you know, positive correlated relationship between number of years of experience and more likelihood to send that note, you know, I mean, somebody   to two years experience, but they're barely even sending email, thank yous anymore. I mean, I don't think a written note is necessarily necessary, because by the time it gets there, you know, hiring is hard, it's moving so fast, it will get there for four or five days, I always recommend within 24 hours, send a thank you note, you know, if you interviewed at four o'clock in the afternoon, don't send an email at five, you know, or send it the next day, but that's your last opportunity to really offer up anything else. But don't send a canned, thank you for your time, I'm the best candidate, you know, give them something else that isn't on your resume that they didn't have in the interview, you know, whatever the case may be, and you'd be really surprised, especially in positions that are customer service oriented sales, anything that's interacting with an external air, internal stakeholder, that does make a huge difference for sure.

Scott Townsend  
So when you do the Thank you note, maybe what you're saying is maybe bring up something that you weren't able to elaborate on during the interview. Or, if you can, if you can,

Corey Walker  
yeah, and we're, you know, just restate your interests, restate, you know, how you feel like you can hit the ground running, you know, also allow any opportunity for you have any more questions, concerns, you know, feel free to reach out to me, here's my information, because a lot of times in an interview, you may not be able to exchange business cards, or they may not necessarily, you know, have your contact information, just cuz you're moving so quickly. But I think, you know, having that leaving that door open, I think helps a lot. I think it also helps you get feedback faster, you know, especially if you're working with a smaller company. Usually, they're going to respond back to that email with some sort of timing or anything. But to go back to the interview, I always recommend at the end, or at the end of an interview, just to kind of ask those questions, you know, hey, do you have any more questions for me any concerns I didn't answer, you know, what, what do you expect to be the next step and timing? Because if you don't understand that, you're gonna go crazy sitting at home not understanding that, hey, you're their first interview. They've got two more weeks of interviews before Yeah. So for your own mental stability, I think I recommend doing that. So

Scott Townsend  
all right. Also, after the interviews and thank you note, and just to tag on what you just said, that is when should you follow up? I mean, okay, the thank you notes sent. What's proper what? In following should I call should I email should I should I call them the next three days,week, what?

Corey Walker  
 I generally think about a week, just for a soft email, I think in a phone call can be a little abrasive, and you don't want to turn off the client or turn off the hiring manager. If you're down to one or two, you know, you call after two days that can be pretty abrasive. So I think respect their timeline if they give that to you in the interview, but I think if they don't provide a timeline, I think a soft, you know, within a week, you know, if you interview on Tuesday, do it the following Wednesday, you know, or something like that. Or if a lot of times, they'll even give you the license to follow up, you know, if they say, Hey, feel free to follow up in a week, do that. For that, you know, they've given me permission and license to do that. So do that.

Scott Townsend  
is following up a good sign to the hiring manager that this person?

Corey Walker  
Yeah, that you're still interested? Yeah, I think so. Because again, the percentage of people that follow up are a lot less. You know, just kind of goes slowly down with the more follow up now, you can do too much follow up, right, like sending email two days after and then a week after, and then give me a call. And it's like, okay, this person, because you want to come off as desperate. Because at the end of the day, you people that are desperate don't come off as confident that at the end of the day, so I know you need a job, and you might be unemployed, but you don't want to hate your job as well. So,

Scott Townsend  
yeah, don't send cookies.

Corey Walker  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Scott Townsend  
Don't get a billboard across the street from the HQ. And

Corey Walker  
I've seen you know, you always see those stories that are like that go viral on someone standing on the corner in a suit with handing out resumes or something like that. Yeah, that's cool. And all that you don't want to be questioned about your lunacy?

Scott Townsend  
That's all really good. I mean, it sounds very practical. Common sense, but you just gave two examples of easy things to do that most people don't do. Yeah, absolutely. Then send a thank you. Thank you note. follow up. Maybe maybe think about the interview. I remember I did an interview one time. Oh, my gosh, I walked in, I'm amped up. I've had coffee. It was out of state, they flew me down and had coffee that morning, man I was I was ready to go baby. I had all the info. And I was going to tell them how great I was and how I can help them. You know. So anyway, all morning long interviews, then we go to lunch. That's great, you know, and then after lunch, they gave me an office office to sit in until my plane left. And I was just, I was just wore out. I mean, I was spent. And I got ready to leave. And they said, Well, I hope you have a great trip back. And thanks for coming down. And whatever I said, at that point was incomprehensible. I don't you know what I said it was kind of yeah, my brain just snapped. I mean, everything it was. Oh, god. Yeah, I didn't get that job, actually. Yeah,

Corey Walker  
you know, it's funny, one of my best stories I'll tell about myself, as I was interviewing, right out of college had pulled a chair out to sit down in front of it, and missed the chair, literally fell on my pardon my language, my ass, right on the ground.  I didn't get that job either. I've been doing this for 15 years, I still make mistakes when I interview people or interview. I mean, we're all human. And I think at the end of the day, you got to remember that you gotta remember the person you're talking to is human. And a lot of times, they're just as tired from interviewing as you are. Because if they've interviewed one, they've interviewed five or six or seven, if they have multiple positions open. They've been doing this too. So kind of keep that in mind. I mean, you know, don't monopolize people's time and say that's the other thing is, we have some candidates, it's booked for an hour, they take two hours, going over a little bits Okay. But once you start exceeding about 50% of the allotted interview time, you're a talker.

Scott Townsend  
Yeah. And it might be good to ask them, you know, my time is up the hours up. Yeah,

Corey Walker  
that's a great actually a great way to respect them is to say, Hey, I just noticed, we're running a few minutes over, you know, do we want to go and wrap up? Do you have more questions? For me? I think having that self awareness, and that self check is huge, because other companies are going to do because it's kind of awkward to be like, Hey, can you stop talking so I can go to this meeting? You know, so

Scott Townsend  
and I think it gives it sounds like a good sense of humor is a good thing to have to just take a deep breath. You know, go in do your best.

Corey Walker  
You're not gonna die.

Scott Townsend  
Yeah, they're not gonna kill you. You know, it's Yeah, that's absolutely right. Oh, man. Well Corey I really appreciate your time and your insight. And if anybody wants, has questions or wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?

Corey Walker  
Yeah, they can email us, which is recruiting@insightpartners.com. That's NCITE partners with an s.com. So located in Oklahoma City. Yes, sir. But we do work nationwide

Scott Townsend  
Good deal. All right. Well, Cory, thanks a lot. And it'd be fun to have you back some time. So hope you had a good time and will come back. Awesome. I'm sure there's a lot to talk about. Oh, here. I showed. Here's my resume, but I put it on foam core. Oh, there you go. So it's like Yeah, yeah. But anyway, well, for Corey Walker. This is Scott Townsend. Thanks for watching listening to The Scott Townsend Show. Have a great day. Everything's gonna be alright. And we'll talk to you later.

Britany McCullough  
The Scott Townsend show is a Deetsoman Productions. For more episodes, visit The Scott Townsend Show YouTube channel, listen on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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